17-12-2004 03:04									#61
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If gay marriage will ever be allowed(and I think it will, although I think the present way of partnership is good enough), I certainly hope it will not be mandatory for the priests to marry them against their will... I mean, I have nothing particular against gays, but it would be wrong if the priests would have to do this even if it's against their faith. In Norway we have state church, and that means that if the state decides gay marriage is all right, the church and its priests has to obey... I think that is wrong.

	17-12-2004 03:20									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Nikolai If gay marriage will ever be allowed(and I think it will, although I think the present way of partnership is good enough), I certainly hope it will not be mandatory for the priests to marry them against their will... I mean, I have nothing particular against gays, but it would be wrong if the priests would have to do this even if it's against their faith. In Norway we have state church, and that means that if the state decides gay marriage is all right, the church and its priests has to obey... I think that is wrong.

I think it is wrong to have State Church. This is one of the reasons.

Over here in France, the official marriage is done before the mayor, and you can have whatever religious marriage if you want as well. The religious marriage is something entirely decided by the religious authorities (and not by the State), because they have no impact whatsoever on your official marital status.

	17-12-2004 03:21									#63
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Nobody is asking religions to perform marriages against their wishes. Religions should be allowed to make their own decisions on who's marriage that their faith will sanction. That's their right, and they are welcome to it.

What some people are saying is that religion shouldn't dictate to the state what the state should be allowed to do. In the US, you need a license from the state to get married. That is the OFFICIAL document that provides all the legal rights that come with marriage. Religions should stay out of that process...

	17-12-2004 03:25									#64
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I couldn't have put it better. Marriage is a contract between two people sanctioned by the state. It is no affair of any other group to dictate the parameters of the marriage (as long as within the bounds of consent, etc).

	17-12-2004 03:27									#65
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Marriage is steeped in straight and religious traditions.

Why not enter into a contract with fifty men while you're at it.

	17-12-2004 03:38									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf Marriage is steeped in straight and religious traditions.

Yep... it is. So what. Nobody is saying that the religions can't do as they wish.

But sea captain, justice's of the peace, and other public officials also have a long tradition when it comes to marriages

The point is that the state provides the official document that provides the legal rights that come with it. Please explain how religion is involved in any of this... they don't have a role in the legal part at all. And they shouldn't.

Religions can't even agree on this issue... so which religion do you want to make the rules

Let them do what they want... and let the state do what it wants... That's the way it's supposed to work.

	17-12-2004 03:39									#67
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quote: they don't have a role in the legal part at all. And they shouldn't.

But the state does.

And the state has no reason to compromise its cultural standards and traditions on everyone who wants rights protection.

Otherwise, why not marry 55 people to each other.

	17-12-2004 03:40									#68
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Agreed, my brother was actually married to his wife by the Captain of his ship.

It is still a legal marriage.

ACK!

	17-12-2004 03:44									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski Agreed, my brother was actually married to his wife by the Captain of his ship. It is still a legal marriage. ACK!

If I didn't know your style already, your traditional closing comment would suggest you strongly disapproved.

ACK!

	17-12-2004 03:47									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Monk If I didn't know your style already, your traditional closing comment would suggest you strongly disapproved. ACK!

Maybe I do............



ACK!

	17-12-2004 03:53									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf But the state does. And the state has no reason to compromise its cultural standards and traditions on everyone who wants rights protection. Otherwise, why not marry 55 people to each other.

If that's what the state passes as a law, whatever.

My point is that the it's up to the state to make the laws... NOT religions (who can't even agree on this subject) If the state doesn't want to sanction such marriages... it's their right.

Frankly, as long as people are consenting adults, I really have no problem with what marriage arrangements they want to make. I do however think the law should be fair... And that's why I support gay marriages. They should have the same legal rights.

	17-12-2004 04:09									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf Marriage is steeped in straight and religious traditions. Why not enter into a contract with fifty men while you're at it.

Why not indeed?

	17-12-2004 04:12									#73
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quote: My point is that the it's up to the state to make the laws... NOT religions (who can't even agree on this subject) If the state doesn't want to sanction such marriages... it's their right.

This seems reasonable.

But this does not:

quote: I really have no problem with what marriage arrangements they want to make.

I think a nation ought to have cultural norms, and if marriage is that last bastion, then god damn if I'll surrender with Davy Crockett's spirit guiding me.

A culture that thinks of marrying 50 people to each other...the line must be drawn..

	17-12-2004 04:13									#74
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The same people who want to change cultural norms don't want to "Rashly" change the constitution.

Realize your history, embrace it, not 50 other men, lest we fall apart at the seams as a nation under God with standards of justice and morality.

	17-12-2004 04:16									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf The same people who want to change cultural norms don't want to "Rashly" change the constitution. Realize your history, embrace it, not 50 other men, lest we fall apart at the seams as a nation under God with standards of justice and morality.

Don't you mean justice for all?

ACK!

	17-12-2004 04:18									#76
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What you think Wiglaf should have no bearing on what others want to do? Societal norms? Who are you or your type to define them or impose them on other people. I will reiterate - it is no business of yours to define the relationships of other people...would you like me to define by which parameters who should live your life? No...

	17-12-2004 04:20									#77
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The United States government has thrived with basic instiutions intact, marriage between a man and woman being one of them.

Culturally the world is in upheaval, this liberal idea that advocates pleasure above all else.

The United States has fallen victim to this culture to an extent, but to maintain some common theme on a topic so fundamental as marriage, it chooses not to embrace gay marriage.

Tell me why that's wrong and I'm a liar.

	17-12-2004 04:22									#78
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quote: Don't you mean justice for all?

You want a culture where men can screw their dogs legally. Ridiculous, haha would you like a biscuit. FETCH,

	17-12-2004 04:26									#79
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Wiglaf, that is not correct. A gay relationship is between two human beings who can consent. You cannot compare this to bestiality. That's a logical fallacy. The United States governemnt has thrived with basic institutions intact? You have a big problem with denial. What is the divorce rate these days? The US Government does not rely on marriage to survive in the first place so I see no harm in granting gay couples marriage. Societal norms? According to whom? Crazy nutcase christians? I don't think so. I'm as much part of this country as you are.

	17-12-2004 04:40									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf The United States government has thrived with basic instiutions intact, marriage between a man and woman being one of them. Culturally the world is in upheaval, this liberal idea that advocates pleasure above all else. The United States has fallen victim to this culture to an extent, but to maintain some common theme on a topic so fundamental as marriage, it chooses not to embrace gay marriage. Tell me why that's wrong and I'm a liar.

You're drawing complete nonsequiturs...what the hell has gay marriage got to do with the position of the United States in the world? Nothing whatsoever. What has the principles of hedonism to do with homosexuality rather than heterosexuality? It's a matter of different horses for different courses and nothing else. Unless of course you are alluding to your antiquated, outmoded concept of sin and how 'pleasure is bad'. Quite frankly, that's a load of outmoded codswallop...

	17-12-2004 04:44									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison You're drawing complete nonsequiturs...what the hell has gay marriage got to do with the position of the United States in the world? Nothing whatsoever. What has the principles of hedonism to do with homosexuality rather than heterosexuality? It's a matter of different horses for different courses and nothing else. Unless of course you are alluding to your antiquated, outmoded concept of sin and how 'pleasure is bad'. Quite frankly, that's a load of outmoded codswallop...

Ah yes, the type of logical fallacy I was looking for was nonsequiturs. Thanks, PH, for helping me out. Well afterall in his mind he thinks homosexuality will collapse civilization.

	17-12-2004 06:10									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf You want a culture where men can screw their dogs legally. Ridiculous, haha would you like a biscuit. FETCH,

As long as your dog doesn't mind, why should I?

ACK!

	17-12-2004 06:16									#83
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quote: outmoded concept of sin and how 'pleasure is bad'. Quite frankly, that's a load of outmoded codswallop...

"Outmoded concept of sin, responsibility" = language of a cultural slide.

Homosexuals ought not to be state sanctinoned because this is a fundamentally hedonistic practice - marriages ending in divorce can also be (although largely not at the outset) but most serve far more functional and substantive roles.

	17-12-2004 06:18									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf Homosexuals ought not to be state sanctinoned because this is a fundamentally hedonistic practice -

Wiglaf is Alan Keyes!

	17-12-2004 06:18									#85
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun I am reading a new book titled "Why Marriage Matters: America, Equality, and Gay People's Right to Marry" by Evan Wolfson. I found out that in 1987 the Supreme Court of United States ruled in the Turner v. Safley case that convicted felons have the right/freedom to marry. Apparently, convicted felons are worthy of equal citizenship over law-abiding gays and lesbians who pay their taxes, earn a living through a job, and are actively involved in their community.

That has absolutely nothing to do with the arguments against gay marriage.

	17-12-2004 06:22									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf "Outmoded concept of sin, responsibility" = language of a cultural slide. Homosexuals ought not to be state sanctinoned because this is a fundamentally hedonistic practice - marriages ending in divorce can also be (although largely not at the outset) but most serve far more functional and substantive roles.

Nonsequitur...and you keep repeating it. Homosexuality is inherently no more hedonistic than heterosexuality - it is a matter of inclination.

And believe it or not, very few people plan to get divorced when they get married (I would say tending towards zero). And what if a homosexual marriage is more likely to last - which is very probable!

And what is a 'cultural slide'? It sounds like more conservative bullsh*t to me with no grounding in rationality...

	17-12-2004 06:35									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf "Outmoded concept of sin, responsibility" = language of a cultural slide. Homosexuals ought not to be state sanctinoned because this is a fundamentally hedonistic practice - marriages ending in divorce can also be (although largely not at the outset) but most serve far more functional and substantive roles.

Explain the 50% divorce rate amongst heterosexual couples these days. Your words will keep backfiring on you. Homosexuality is no more hedonistic then heterosexuality.

The christian bible does not control the morality in a democracy.

	17-12-2004 06:36									#88
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quote: The christian bible does not control the morality in a democracy.

	17-12-2004 06:50									#89
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The fact that straight couples divorce is irrelevant. As you said they do not plan to divorce when they are married; the idea is usually to start a family.

If it fails, that is unfortunate, but the fundamental practice results in procreation by and large. It is not entirely rooted in pleasure or two lovebirds being able to have sex. Throughout history is served as a good way to provide family stability.

To change that pretty noble institution into a "bang whatever you want" mentality is more than a little stirring. It is also the government's call, and the government can decide what is and what isn't fundamentally or historically founded for the best interests of the country.

quote: The christian bible does not control the morality in a democracy.

Sounds like more liberal BS to me, and in addition this has nothing to do with the argument. If you want to call an institution for raising stable families a wildly right wing operation then I think you need to rethink your widly liberal philosophies.

PS Kuciwalker at least you keep an open mind more than I can say about the rest of the world

	17-12-2004 06:54									#90
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quote: Sounds like more liberal BS to me

It's necessary to be a liberal to think we shouldn't have a biblical theocracy?