17-12-2004 07:58									#121
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quote: In keeping with traditional moral American standards? Does slavery count? Or how about Jim Crowe laws and segregation? America is a country that has a bill of rights and a constitution. It is a country where all should be respected and two consenting adults should be allowed to marry.

Because some of America's traditional values are wrong does not mean all are. I ask you to make a clear moral distiction between heterosexual marriage and slavery and you cannot do it?

quote: The only reason you don't like it is because it's against your personal morality... and no other reason. You have no logical arguments, just your bigotry...

Oh the bigot card again.

No, gays hurt Americans culturally because they destroy an institution so clearly intended for procreation and as a secondary benefit, social order. It's not entirely about either of the two, but primarily it's about procreation.

	17-12-2004 08:00									#122
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	17-12-2004 08:01									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf No, gays hurt Americans culturally because they destroy an institution so clearly intended for procreation and as a secondary benefit, social order. It's not entirely about either of the two, but primarily it's about procreation.

Gays getting married provides social order... a better society... and like those couples who get married with no intention of having children, they provide a more stable enviornment for all those around them...

But you want to allow one, and not the other...

Proof again that you are just a bigot

	17-12-2004 08:01									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf Because some of America's traditional values are wrong does not mean all are. I ask you to make a clear moral distiction between heterosexual marriage and slavery and you cannot do it?

Well then.. how can you say that your anti-gay propaganda and illogical morality statements that supposeably conform to some traditional values are right? They very well are wrong and are bigoted. You are a bigot. It is that simple.

quote: No, gays hurt Americans culturally because they destroy an institution so clearly intended for procreation and as a secondary benefit, social order. It's not entirely about either of the two, but primarily it's about procreation.

No on both counts. You can't back yourself up. Marriage was intended as for committment. You have no evidence to back yourself up. Your statement are full of illogical fallacies (non-sequiters). We hurt Americans? How so? We pay taxes too. Wouldn't gay marriages help America? Afterall the couple would have to pay more in taxes...!

Your argument again backfires.

	17-12-2004 08:02									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo I'm not fond of nuts like Barack Obama on the other side, but this is not the issue. And i'm not registered a republican by the way.. "non-partisan".

Barack Obama would body slam you to the GROUND AND GIVE YOU A BEAT DOWN!!!

	17-12-2004 08:03									#126
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Sava, I'm debating with Wiglaf. Except he isn't debating back. He's just throwing idiotic bigoted statements at everybody. However, please don't spam this thread. Let me have my space for a bit.

	17-12-2004 08:03									#127
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quote: Gays getting married provides social order... a better society.

Through repeated acts of sodomy entirely for pleasure with no procreative end?

Why should the government endorse that anymore than it should cat-sex?

	17-12-2004 08:03									#128
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I will defend obama's honor!

	17-12-2004 08:04									#129
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Debating isn't calling someone a bigot. That's being a jackass..

	17-12-2004 08:05									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf Through repeated acts of sodomy entirely for pleasure with no procreative end? Why should the government endorse that anymore than it should cat-sex?

Heterosexuals engage in sodomy too. Additionally it is not illegal. And it isn't entirely for pleasure. It is often to show the love we have for another human being.

Why should the government endorse homosexuality anymore then it should heterosexuality?

	17-12-2004 08:06									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf Through repeated acts of sodomy entirely for pleasure with no procreative end? Why should the government endorse that anymore than it should cat-sex?

It's nice to know you think cat sex is similar to sex between two consenting adults...

Again... a couple who has no intention of having children is doing it for pleasure and love. Gays, straight... same thing... but you allow one, and not the other... you little bigot you

	17-12-2004 08:06									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf Debating isn't calling someone a bigot. That's being a jackass..

Correct. You are being a bigot. There is no debate to that.

	17-12-2004 08:08									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf Marriage is the government's business, even at its most secular. Not gays'.

The government sanction it - it still remains none of your business at the end of the day...

	17-12-2004 08:09									#134
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quote: It's nice to know you think cat sex is similar to sex between two consenting adults...

You're avoiding the issue. Gays can have sex all they want. It's fine and legal.

The government does not have to endorse them with additonal legal benefits because the practice it feels is not productive. And it isn't. It's 100% pleasure-based.

	17-12-2004 08:09									#135
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You've revealed your true colours there Wiglaf...it all comes down to that biblical sin - a book you swalled whole at some point and now you don't know how to question things for yourself...pity.

	17-12-2004 08:11									#136
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf You're avoiding the issue. Gays can have sex all they want. It's fine and legal. The government does not have to endorse them with additonal legal benefits because the practice it feels is not productive. And it isn't. It's 100% pleasure-based.

If I feel I want to commit myself to a person of the same sex and live with that person for the rest of my life, that should be endorsed by the government. And wrong again.. it is not 100% pleasure based (again get it in your sick head, I'm not all about pleasure). I'm taking this argument to a personal viewpoint because I am homosexual, and it is becoming personal.

	17-12-2004 08:12									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf You're avoiding the issue.

You are the one that keeps bringing up how sex with an animal is similar to the love between gay people.

I guess the only way you would know that is by the soft meows your cat wispers in your ear as you have sex with it... so I guess that's why you probably think it's consentual....

SO just stop it with your "gay sex is like somebody forcing sex on an animal" crap... just more bigotry and stupidity on your part.

	17-12-2004 08:20									#138
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quote: If I feel I want to commit myself to a person of the same sex and live with that person for the rest of my life, that should be endorsed by the government

Marriage has been between a man and a woman for generations now. Because a liberal culture craze sweeps America does not elevate sexually worthless and culturally radical friendships to the institution of marriage.

quote: You are the one that keeps bringing up how sex with an animal is similar to the love between gay people

It's a chilling effect argument.
It's a chilling effect argument.
It's a chilling effect argument.
It's a chilling effect argument.
It's a chilling effect argument.
It's a chilling effect argument.

It's not a literal metaphor, for Christ's sakes stop laughing about it, cat-sex was funny in grade one.

	17-12-2004 08:22									#139
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf Marriage has been between a man and a woman for generations now. Because a liberal culture craze sweeps America does not elevate friendships to the institution of marriage.

Gay love has been around since the beginning of man, before America even existed. Homosexuals have been long oppressed and deserve freedom. America is not directed by religious fanatics as yourself.

	17-12-2004 08:24									#140
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You bleeding heart liberal, gay love has never provided for stability and never will. And it's a matter of stability more than religion.

	17-12-2004 08:26									#141
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf You bleeding heart liberal, gay love has never provided for stability and never will. And it's a matter of stability more than religion.

Hahahah.. again calling me a liberal is like calling Sava a republican. I'm not a liberal. Not even close. Gay love is stable and will be. If it is about stability then marriage would be granted to us.

	17-12-2004 08:26									#142
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"It's a chilling effect argument"

Call it what you want... but it still shows your stupidity for making the comparison.

Let's all vote... which is more moral?

Wiglaf forcing himself on a kitten,

or two consenting adults who love each other making love...

You make the call!



just another "chilling effect"

	17-12-2004 08:30									#143
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quote: Gay love is stable and will be. If it is about stability then marriage would be granted to us.

Marriage is about the family and its cultural fortitude as one standing bastion of American moral value. Look at it historically, practically. It is not a gigantic sex-hedonistic party and can not be stable as such.

Ming, I ban you as mod in absentia, you are misquoting, insulting, and spreading sexual malice, come back in a week.

	17-12-2004 08:32									#144
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf Marriage is about the family and its cultural fortitude as one standing bastion of American moral value. Look at it historically, practically. It is not a gigantic sex-hedonistic party and can not be stable as such. Ming, I ban you as mod in absentia, you are misquoting, insulting, and spreading sexual malice, come back in a week.

Wrong again. Homosexuality is no more hedonistic then heterosexuality. Nice try really. American moral value? I'm a part of this country too and so is every other gay person. You can't force out because of YOUR moral values, which are wrong to begin with.

Wiglaf, you're a idiotic bigot. You don't control this forum.

	17-12-2004 08:34									#145
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Homosexuality has nothing to do with procreation. Maybe it's not always hedonistic in that it can show love. Fine. But I can show love to a cat too....if you allow it for one, you must allow it for all. Ridiculous.

	17-12-2004 08:35									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf Homosexuality has nothing to do with procreation. Maybe it's not always hedonistic in that it can show love. Fine. But I can show love to a cat too....if you allow it for one, you must allow it for all. Ridiculous.

Wrong again! A cat cannot consent. Some of the same sex can consent! You are the one who is acting ridiculous.

	17-12-2004 08:35									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf Marriage is about the family and its cultural fortitude as one standing bastion of American moral value. Look at it historically, practically. It is not a gigantic sex-hedonistic party and can not be stable as such.

Hmmm... there are a lot of gay couples who have very stable relationships that most would consider the same as a marriage if it wasn't for bigots like you You argument that they can't be stable relationships is just plain silly... You have no proof that gay marriages would be any less stable than the 50% of straight marriages that end in divorce. Your arguments are not based in any kind of logic... just silly unsupported opinions.

quote: Ming, I ban you as mod in absentia, you are misquoting, insulting, and spreading sexual malice, come back in a week.

Nahhh... I can deal with people who post bigotry, because that is against the rules here... and you are just posting your hateful bigotry... so your stuck with me!

	17-12-2004 08:39									#148
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quote: Wrong again! A cat cannot consent. Some of the same sex can consent! You are the one who is acting ridiculous.

Fine. One guy married to 6000000000000000000000.

Draw the line somewhere for God's sake.

And Ming, a nation must have a definition of marriage. If you let gays marry, the definition as it has stood successfully for generations collapses, America is swept away by culture wave, and marriage as a venerable institution is gone, replaced by a chilling effected waste of time.

	17-12-2004 08:40									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf Fine. One guy married to 6000000000000000000000. Draw the line somewhere for God's sake. And Ming, a nation must have a definition of marriage. If you let gays marry, the definition as it has stood successfully for generations collapses, America is swept away by culture wave, and marriage as a venerable institution is gone, replaced by a chilling effected waste of time.

Draw the line? OH NO.. not this argument again. Again in a gay relationship there are two non-related people. Not one of many people. Again your argument is illogical and you are acting like an idiot.

And that paragraph directed at Ming is ridiculous.

	17-12-2004 08:44									#150
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quote: Again in a gay relationship there are two non-related people. Not one of many people

Can an argument be made that marriages ought to be allowed among 50 people or not?