17-12-2004 21:26									#181
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker As I mentioned, the legal rights accorded to a married couple don't work with more than two people. They can certainly form marriage-like contracts, but marriage as we do it isn't possible between more than two people.

There are no impediments, outside of pre-existing religious bias, to multi-member marriages. From the states perspective marriage is essentially a contract and contracts between more than two people are obviously commonplace.

	17-12-2004 21:41									#182
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quote: There are no impediments, outside of pre-existing religious bias, to multi-member marriages. From the states perspective marriage is essentially a contract and contracts between more than two people are obviously commonplace.

The marriage contract involves certain exclusive rights.

	17-12-2004 21:59									#183
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker quote: There are no impediments, outside of pre-existing religious bias, to multi-member marriages. From the states perspective marriage is essentially a contract and contracts between more than two people are obviously commonplace. The marriage contract involves certain exclusive rights.

Such as?

	17-12-2004 22:03									#184
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As I mentioned before, the right to determine what happens to the deceased's body. That's just an example.

	17-12-2004 22:09									#185
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker As I mentioned before, the right to determine what happens to the deceased's body. That's just an example.

That is not an exclusive 'right'. Children, parents, and other family members often interfere. Where there is dispute the courts can decide matters of polygamous marriages just as they can decide other family matters.

	17-12-2004 22:20									#186
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quote: That is not an exclusive 'right'. Children, parents, and other family members often interfere. Where there is dispute the courts can decide matters of polygamous marriages just as they can decide other family matters.

Here's another, then: custody of children. How does that work out if, say, a guy has several wives, and he dies? What if the wives aren't married to each other? Etc. It just makes things incredibly complicated. If they want to write up a contract detailing all of that, they can.

	17-12-2004 23:02									#187
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo No it isn't. This is very much about love and committment. Say if Asher and his boyfriend want to get married, they should have that right.

We've been engaged for months.

I'm going to invite Ben Kenobi to the wedding when we have it (which won't be any time soon, due to monetary and social circumstance). I'll even pay for his plane ticket so he can see what true love is like.

Marriage is about love, not a vehicle for procreation exclusively.

	17-12-2004 23:06									#188
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If Ben doesn't come, I wouldn't mind you inviting me at your wedding

(gotta love a free ticket to Canada )

	17-12-2004 23:09									#189
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It costs more to fly from France to Calgary than Vancouver to Calgary, alas.

	17-12-2004 23:17									#190
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Here's another, then: custody of children. How does that work out if, say, a guy has several wives, and he dies? What if the wives aren't married to each other? Etc. It just makes things incredibly complicated. If they want to write up a contract detailing all of that, they can.

No more complicated that divy-ing up an estate with no will or deciding custody in a divorce. Legalizing polygamy is simply a matter of deciding to do it.

	18-12-2004 00:05									#191
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quote: Originally posted by Asher We've been engaged for months. I'm going to invite Ben Kenobi to the wedding when we have it (which won't be any time soon, due to monetary and social circumstance). I'll even pay for his plane ticket so he can see what true love is like. Marriage is about love, not a vehicle for procreation exclusively.

Aww.. I'm really happy for you. Believe me I am happy. Yes invite BK.. maybe his mind will be opened.

	18-12-2004 01:29									#192
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I was busy for only about three days, packing my stuff in my apartment, cleaning, and doing errands and this thread has exploded in the meantime.



Sometime soon after I move back, I will see if I have time to read the posts, and then reply to some of them.

	18-12-2004 01:31									#193
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MrFun, I read a few pages of Giancarlo v. Wiglaf, with occasional insights from Sava. For your own good: leave this thread and never come back. It's been Wisafezzed.

-Arrian

edit: there ya go, Savita

Last edited by Arrian on 18-12-2004 at 01:37

	18-12-2004 01:35									#194
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Arrian: Don't forget my important contributions!

edit: w00t!

Last edited by Sava on 18-12-2004 at 01:44

	18-12-2004 01:39									#195
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH No more complicated that divy-ing up an estate with no will or deciding custody in a divorce.

In a divorce, there are exactly three people who can get the kids - the mom, dad, or State. With polygamy, there can be MANY more parties than there are people involved.

	18-12-2004 01:40									#196
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian MrFun, I read a few pages of Giancarlo v. Wiglaf, with occasional insights from Sava. For your own good: leave this thread and never come back. It's been Wisafezzed. -Arrian edit: there ya go, Savita

WTF? I thought I was having a constructive debate with Wiglaf? Ming even joined in. That's rare for him to join in a debate with me involved.. unless he's restricting me. And I'm still here.

	18-12-2004 03:55									#197
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quote: Just because something is tradition doesn't make it right. Remember slavery? Was that right? At the time, you'd have probably wanted to retain slavery because it is tradition and would shake the foundations of society. But no, because you have the power of hindsight. What makes this different?

First of all, the government did not simply endorse slavery or non-slavery; it imposed slavery on people, making the government a far more active moral agent (note that now it only passively refused to grant gays special legal rights. It is not restricting them from being gay or doing gay things.) Quite a difference.

Note that marriage is a government sponsorship. To maintain a reasonable definition of so fundamental a concept, the government chooses, as is its moral right, to avoid the chill affect and preserve its pretty basic tradition.

	18-12-2004 04:14									#198
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker In a divorce, there are exactly three people who can get the kids - the mom, dad, or State. With polygamy, there can be MANY more parties than there are people involved.

So your opposition to polygamy is that it might be complicated? Thats not much of an argument for keeping something illegal.

	18-12-2004 04:20									#199
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf Note that marriage is a government sponsorship. To maintain a reasonable definition of so fundamental a concept, the government chooses, as is its moral right, to avoid the chill affect and preserve its pretty basic tradition.

Yep, the Government can choose, and the law change in the near future to allow it.

And again, the "chill affect"...
Maybe for you, but a lot of people would disagree and see it as the government moving to a higher moral ground if they change the law by treating people fairly.

Remember, many people don't agree with your personal "moral" code... especially since it is one based in bigotry and hate

	18-12-2004 04:59									#200
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quote: Maybe for you, but a lot of people would disagree and see it as the government moving to a higher moral ground if they change the law by treating people fairly.

Well **** ming, if some people disagree, it must be right. Legalize away.

The core issue is whether or not you're going to treat everyone fairly. No one here has come out supporting polygamists, or alternative takes on marriage as an institution. You just have to if you want to justify gays getting married. That's your problem...

quote: Remember, many people don't agree with your personal "moral" code... especially since it is one based in bigotry and hate

If you want to call someone a bigot fifty times make it interesting.

	18-12-2004 05:09									#201
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf Well **** ming, if some people disagree, it must be right. Legalize away.

Yep... and that's the point. It should be up to the people and the government... not religions. If the people support it, it will happen. To treat couples FAIRLY, it should be allowed. And it will eventually happen. So they will get the last laugh on all the bigots...

	18-12-2004 05:39									#202
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The point being of this entire debate, Wiggy Piggy, is that you cannot push your moral ideas on others. This isn't the United States of Wiglaf.

	18-12-2004 07:07									#203
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Wiggy Piggy? Gian, if you are going to use an insult, use something a bit less lame, OK?

	18-12-2004 07:42									#204
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison Wiggy Piggy? Gian, if you are going to use an insult, use something a bit less lame, OK?

I'm not going to waste the effort on someone like Wiglaf.

	18-12-2004 08:27									#205
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quote: The point being of this entire debate, Wiggy Piggy, is that you cannot push your moral ideas on others. This isn't the United States of Wiglaf.

It's legal to be gay. This isn't slavery.

You want to push your ideas onto the government, entirely obscuring what marriage as an instiution even is. Again, polygamy, etc are logical corollaries.

quote: Yep... and that's the point. It should be up to the people and the government... not religions. If the people support it, it will happen. To treat couples FAIRLY, it should be allowed. And it will eventually happen. So they will get the last laugh on all the bigots...

Well in many states it isn't happening. But that's not the point, is it?

Just because we dropped a bomb on Hiroshima and it was popular doesn't make that right either. While gov would be within its rights to make gay marriage legal, the effects of their decision are what's in play here.....

	18-12-2004 08:30									#206
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And what are you doing? You are pushing your ideas on government and on the lives on gay couples. I have no room for a fascist who thinks he can compare homosexuality to polygamy. You again are being a total illogical person. Damn bigot.

	18-12-2004 08:49									#207
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In twenty years, people will say I am a fascist for thinking I can compare cat sex with toaster weddings.

If you want that slippery slope, you're the "total illogical person."

	18-12-2004 08:52									#208
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf In twenty years, people will say I am a fascist for thinking I can compare cat sex with toaster weddings. If you want that slippery slope, you're the "total illogical person."

Again, you aren't being a fascist in this regard, but MR IRRELEVANT. IRRELVANT IRRELEVANT AND IRRELEVANT. And it is starting to get on my nerves. Cat sex and toaster weddings has nothing to do with homosexuality, nice try mr. irrelevant.

	18-12-2004 08:52									#209
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Twenty years? People'll call you that now. And they'll be exaggerating. Slightly.

	18-12-2004 08:59									#210
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Giancarlo: why can't a man get married to sixty other men? Hypothetically speaking, of course.

And Kuciwalker, Thanks for your support