21-12-2004 09:25									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos Your support is five words from a Red Cross "confidential report" (that happens to be public???), the rest of which is not available, which itself doesn't quote or even produce the so called intelligence report.

Yeah, and I bet when the initial reports came out about Abu Ghraib, you had the same canned spiel. The Red Cross documented that first as well, you know, in confidential reports to the White House. Just like these.

The fact is that the RC cited the intelligence officers who made the estimates in their report to the White House. Why would they cite made-up intelligence officials when they knew the report would be confidential in the first place?

quote: And when did "70 to 90 percent" = "90"?

I guess, given the overall post, I shouldn't be surprised you have trouble reading:

quote: as many as 90%

quote: You post amounts to a spin on a spin on a spin based on nothing.

Your post amounts to ostriching out of increased desperation. Nothing new there.

	21-12-2004 09:26									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi "the President directly authorized interrogation techniques including sleep deprivation, stress positions, the use of military dogs, and "sensory deprivation through the use of hoods, etc." " This isn't torture.

I was wondering where the beating and subjection to perversion was. Glad I'm not the only one.

	21-12-2004 09:27									#33
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There was an anecdote about how that treatment was given to IRA guys.

After a week those guys were delirious to the point that one guy couldn't even remember his name.

But hey, they were IRA scum and deserved it right???

(no offense British people)

That whole point about being able to "sell" torture to the American people, Shi's post is EXACTLY the thing I am talking about.

	21-12-2004 09:31									#34
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Let's start breaking out the links.

Listed on this page as forms of torture are:

Sensory deprivation
Sleep deprivation


To place them in the proper context, they are listed along side those less marketable practices of:

Beatings
Electric Shock

This was a page written to an audience of American Physicians BY American Physicians.

The title, "Torture and War Trauma Survivors"


http://www.survivorsintl.org/info/primarycare.html

	21-12-2004 09:34									#35
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Silly Americans Just pass a law saying that the US recognises that those classified as terrorists are not humans

	21-12-2004 09:37									#37
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I'm guessing that most Americans support the idea of torturing prisoners, the same way most of them support the death penalty.

After all, most people tend to think that if it is extremely unlikely to affect them, it's OK.

The same goes for people almost anywhere...

	21-12-2004 09:38									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Let's start breaking out the links. Listed on this page as forms of torture are: Sensory deprivation Sleep deprivation To place them in the proper context, they are listed along side those less marketable practices of: Beatings Electric Shock This was a page written to an audience of American Physicians BY American Physicians. The title, "Torture and War Trauma Survivors" http://www.survivorsintl.org/info/primarycare.html

To place them in proper context, Western police forces use sleep deprivation. They do not use beatings or electric shock (and get away with it).

	21-12-2004 09:39									#39
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YOu are right.

When 9/11 happened I was so furious to the point I wanted to hunt down those f'ers and get me some Texas Justice.

Now looking back I realize the folly of it all.

	21-12-2004 09:39									#40
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I can't wait to see how this is spun around and deflected off our beloved commander and cheif, resulting in nothing.

	21-12-2004 09:44									#41
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quote: YOu are right. When 9/11 happened I was so furious to the point I wanted to hunt down those f'ers and get me some Texas Justice. Now looking back I realize the folly of it all.

Feeling that way is not unreasonable, given the circumstances. But actually carrying it out would be insane.

I mean the general indifference that pervades our society on the treatment of "outcasts".

University people like me tend to have a very bad idea of what most people think about crime and justice. Most people don't have much more than prejudice and they certainly can't see a problem with things like flogging and torture as long as it's not them or people like them being flogged or tortured.

	21-12-2004 09:45									#42
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn I can't wait to see how this is spun around and deflected off our beloved commander and cheif, resulting in nothing.

What is there to deflect? An executive order authorising standard interrogation practices? Where does it say 'go ahead, beat them and rape them'?

	21-12-2004 09:55									#43
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You know, a real opposition party would sink its teeth into this and not let go...

Rufus waits to see if Harry Reid can even find his teeth...

	21-12-2004 10:12									#44
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Come on. Not letting you sleep is torture? Scaring you with dogs is torture? It's not very nice, but I don't think you can call it torture.

I notice your page also lists things such as isolation. That's already a common practice in prisons for prisoners who won't behave. Interrogations for hours as psychological torture? Well, there are a few people boring enough from this site to make that torture, but most people wouldn't call it that. Comparing that stuff to actual torture that goes on in the world is an insult to the victims.

	21-12-2004 10:15									#45
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quote: Western police forces use sleep deprivation

In the US, I'm sure such tactics would be considered cruel and unusual and barred under the 8th Amendment.

Ok, ok, setting aside the discussion torture, those who say it isn't cannot deny that AT LEAST it is inhuman treatment. Doesn't it bother you that the President is authorizing things in these camps that our Constitution wouldn't allow? Especially seeing how so many of those picked up aren't even Al Queda?

	21-12-2004 10:22									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Western police forces use sleep deprivation In the US, I'm sure such tactics would be considered cruel and unusual and barred under the 8th Amendment. Ok, ok, setting aside the discussion torture, those who say it isn't cannot deny that AT LEAST it is inhuman treatment. Doesn't it bother you that the President is authorizing things in these camps that our Constitution wouldn't allow? Especially seeing how so many of those picked up aren't even Al Queda?

It is very nasty treatment, and i agree that it should not be used or done. But I don't think these offenses rise to the level of torture.

	21-12-2004 10:27									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Western police forces use sleep deprivation In the US, I'm sure such tactics would be considered cruel and unusual and barred under the 8th Amendment. Ok, ok, setting aside the discussion torture, those who say it isn't cannot deny that AT LEAST it is inhuman treatment. Doesn't it bother you that the President is authorizing things in these camps that our Constitution wouldn't allow? Especially seeing how so many of those picked up aren't even Al Queda?

What bothers me is that so many picked up are not AQ. What bothers me is that many picked up were beaten, or effectively raped. That pisses me off, no end.

Am I fussed that someone caught red handed committing murder in Detroit, or Toronto, is deprived of sleep while being interogated? Not in the least, and nor do I shed a tear that a fundy who got caught with a bomb on the way to blow a bunch of people up, or one caught making bombns in a bomb factory, or... is made to feel a bit uncomfortable.

	21-12-2004 10:33									#48
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quote: But I don't think these offenses rise to the level of torture.

That's another debate... but inhuman treatment is also a violation of international law (torture is just worse). So whatever way you do define it, it is an illegal practice.

	21-12-2004 10:34									#49
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quote: Am I fussed that someone caught red handed committing murder in Detroit, or Toronto, is deprived of sleep while being interogated? Not in the least, and nor do I shed a tear that a fundy who got caught with a bomb on the way to blow a bunch of people up, or one caught making bombns in a bomb factory, or... is made to feel a bit uncomfortable.

That's nice, but they still have rights. We don't live in a dictatorship so everyone gets the same rights, no matter how much we may despise them.

	21-12-2004 10:37									#50
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quote: but they still have rights

actually, no they don't.

	21-12-2004 10:38									#51
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Except of course, that

	21-12-2004 10:43									#52
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I guess I'm abivalent about this order from President Bush.

On the one hand, you cannot expect to get critical information by asking suspects of terrorist activities nicely for the info, with lemonade and cookies.


On the other hand, you cannot retort to excessively inhumane actions to extract information from suspects.

But from what Shi has pointed out, the specific actions that Bush has authorized are really mild compared to what would be much more wrongful and unjustified.

	21-12-2004 10:45									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Am I fussed that someone caught red handed committing murder in Detroit, or Toronto, is deprived of sleep while being interogated? Not in the least, and nor do I shed a tear that a fundy who got caught with a bomb on the way to blow a bunch of people up, or one caught making bombns in a bomb factory, or... is made to feel a bit uncomfortable. That's nice, but they still have rights. We don't live in a dictatorship so everyone gets the same rights, no matter how much we may despise them.

My point exactly, is that some of these techniques are used by your own police. Other techniques banned in your own land are used in other western nations.

Do you think that terror suspects in Afghanistan or Iraq deserve rights that a prisoner in Detroit, Toronto, London, Paris, or Berlin might not receive?

Do you want to tie your own hands behind your backs, and try to fight a war, again?

	21-12-2004 10:50									#54
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quote: My point exactly, is that some of these techniques are used by your own police. Other techniques banned in your own land are used in other western nations.

And if they are used by own police then it is done against the law. Hell, the NYPD shoved a broom up Abner Loiama's ass. Just because they did it, doesn't mean it isn't illegal.

quote: Do you think that terror suspects in Afghanistan or Iraq deserve rights that a prisoner in Detroit, Toronto, London, Paris, or Berlin might not receive?

The terror suspects deserve the rights that a prisoner in the US ought to have if his incarciration is by US troops.

And after all, the European Court on Human Rights has called this behavior (the hooded prisoners, sleep and food deprivation, etc) inhumane behavior violating the law BACK IN 1980 in the case of Ireland v. United Kingdom. If police are still doing them stuff in London, Paris, and Berlin, they are violating their law.

	21-12-2004 10:52									#55
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I would love to stay and watch NYE and Imran exchange blows, but I do have to get to bed soon.

	21-12-2004 11:00									#56
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Imran, if there are a few sane people out there that have decided the laws you refer to are useless, self-defeating, illogical bullshit good on them. The world has to turn even if people like you (in this instance) are intent on stopping it.

Other people break sane laws in that time honored tradition revered here on Apolyton known as civil disobediance, I will apply the concept here to our valiant intel guys and troops risking jail and estrangement for your own good.

	21-12-2004 11:07									#57
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quote: if there are a few sane people out there that have decided the laws you refer to are useless, self-defeating, illogical bullshit good on them.

You mean those people who would like to narrow the definition of torture anything 'bad' countries do, a nothing that us 'good' countries do (defining bad and good countries using our terminology, of course). Sane people who want to be able to do whatever they can do right up to the line that torture 'may' be?

I thought we were supposed to be the (actual) good guys? When did that change?

So when are we beheading Al Queda members. After all, the laws against torture are "useless, self-defeating, and illogical bullshit". So let's get cracking with the hot pokers and baseball bats!! Let er rip!

quote: Other people break sane laws in that time honored tradition revered here on Apolyton known as civil disobediance, I will apply the concept here to our valiant intel guys and troops risking jail and estrangement for your own good.

Inflicting inhuman treatment as civil disobediance.

What a crock of BS!

I'm glad there are sane people out there that know that this type of behavior cannnot be tolerated and trying to skirt them hypocracy of the greatest kind for the spreader of 'freedom' around the world.

If it is such a good idea to throw the law out the window, maybe we should inflict inhuman treatment on the world's most dangerous human... that's right, President Bush .

	21-12-2004 11:09									#58
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither To place them in proper context, Western police forces use sleep deprivation. They do not use beatings or electric shock (and get away with it).

BS

1) Prove it

2) They would get in trouble for inhumane treatment

3) They would also get in trouble for coercing the suspect and have their case thrown out in court

Any department that regularly practices it:

1) Is off the books
2) Is corrupt

quote: Police officers are not allowed to use physical force or psychological coercion to get a suspect to talk to them. The days of the rubber hose, protracted grilling under bright lights and severe sleep deprivation are pretty much over. If police officers obtain information through any of these illegal means, the prosecutor cannot use the information at trial. In addition, under the rule known as "the fruit of the poisonous tree," any evidence that the police obtain as the result of a coerced statement is equally inadmissible.

http://www.nolo.com/lawcenter/ency/...B4F35007F022B40

	21-12-2004 11:13									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi It is very nasty treatment, and i agree that it should not be used or done. But I don't think these offenses rise to the level of torture.

They are torture


What's the difference?

I will tell you:

These methods don't leave any physical evidence (cuts, bruises, broken bones) that the torture occured.

Highly effective and a nice sell to the American public who can pat ourselves on the back for aggressivley pursuing the bad guys without being cruel.

	21-12-2004 11:16									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker BS 1) Prove it

There are frequent reports of it being used in lockdown situations, in places like Marion, Pelican Bay, Lexington, etc. It is considered illegal, but prisoners in these places are considered the worst of the worst, and their testimony is not considered credible.