21-12-2004 18:40									#91
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/ governement official

it is all one big lie...

nothing of this is true ...

oh and btw gays and abortion people are bad because god said so

/ massed nod

Nothing of this is true

/ life goes on

	21-12-2004 21:50									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Dude, Reagan wasn't perfect, but DON'T EVEN put Bush in the same category as Reagan, it's disgusting, Reagan's own son said he was an idiot.

Considering that Reagan conspired in mass murders in Latin American countries, this is a masterful understatement of yours.

	21-12-2004 23:10									#93
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Whether this was torture or just nastiness is not that terribly important. As has been widely noted, whatever this behavior was, the fact that it was condoned at such a high level has been devastating to America's effectiveness as a human rights champion.

The US now has little credibility in criticizing China's human right's record, for instance. Thoses photos of hooded, wired figures damaged America's reputation and influence abroad in ways that will take many years to undo.

It outrages me that these neocon buffoons have deliberately and unashamedly squandered what was once something Americans could be proud of.

	21-12-2004 23:42									#94
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quote: Originally posted by mindseye It outrages me that these neocon buffoons have deliberately and unashamedly squandered what was once something Americans could be proud of.

You'd wish that was true.
It's much more horrid then that.

The Americans are not proud of these things anymore, that's why they voted the buffoons into office.

	22-12-2004 00:08									#95
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quote: Those poor harmless men.. they only blow themselves into crowder marketplaces, kidnap people and behead them.. they sure donīt deserve this

wait, i thought moral relativism was something that those dirty liberals did. you know, saying that things like torture can't be all bad if some other societies commit murder for fun.

===

quote: The point is it shouldn't matter WTF is president. If your forces are doing the right thing, they are the right thing under Clinton, Gore, Bush, Kerry, or anyone else. Can you see this in anything other than an anti-Bush light? That is what I was asking.

since when is condoning abuse of prisoners "the right thing"?

personally, if it were clinton's or gore's forces doing this, i'd still be rather unhappy with them.

===

quote: Sorry, Ted, sleep deprivation don't cut it for a scandle.

scandal

===

quote: Well the way I see it, sleep deprivation is not torture... Sensor deprivation, not sure.... What I DO consider torture is stress positions. ...

it's still abuse, plain and simple. the glory of dogs, sleep, and sensory deprivation is unlike beatings and shocks, they don't leave marks.

	22-12-2004 00:17									#96
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If I were ever tortured, I'd tell them exactly what they wanted to hear as soon as I could. Doesn't matter if its the truth or not...if I figured out what they wanted to hear in order to be able to sleep or get the dogs away or eat or see what the heat near my balls was, I'd tell them.

It'd be no use torturing me. Just like torture is of no real use besides bloodlust and payback.

	22-12-2004 00:52									#97
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Why all these techniques? Doesn 't Sodium Penthanol (spelling?) extract the truth from an unwilling subject better? or is that not reliably effective?

	22-12-2004 01:01									#98
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It's like being drunk. You're more suggestable, but you'll pretty much agree to anything.

	22-12-2004 01:04									#99
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Ah, so not really very accurate. I surprised there hasn't been some little nasty discovering of chemicals or techniques to extract information from the brain. Humananity can be disgusting like that and scientists can be that naive.

	22-12-2004 03:17									#100
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quote: Doesn 't Sodium Penthanol (spelling?) extract the truth from an unwilling subject better? or is that not reliably effective?

In addition to what che said, when the US signed the UN Convention Against Torture, we specifically put in a declaration during ratification that using Sodium Penathol to get information would be deemed torture. While we have all sorts of splitting hairs over whether this is torture, we've specifically said that using that substance is torture (even though it is not in the document itself).

	22-12-2004 03:20									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui we specifically put in a declaration during ratification that using Sodium Penathol to get information would be deemed torture.

quote: (even though it is not in the document itself).

	22-12-2004 03:25									#102
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Have you never heard of RUDs? Reservations, Understandings, and Declarations? Countries, while ratifying treaties can issue reservations on certain parts (as long as it does not frustrate the main intent of the treaty). With the UN Covention Against Torture, we expanded the treaty definition to include Sodium Penathol during our ratification.

	22-12-2004 03:52									#103
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You know I was going to write here a response about how the ACLU can't be trusted and is a hypocritical organization that supports NAMBLA and collects data on its members and donors all the while accusing corporations of doing the same thing and whines about the military posing as FBI agents when interrogating terrorists, which they say is torture...but then I realized I am speaking to a fringe group of people that are outcasts of society who have nowhere else to be heard except on a forum where they whine about how society has wronged them and how the rich must give them money and so I decided it would be better to just let you continue whining here in vain since it obviously isn't affecting anyone. Die or disappear into oblivion, for no one cares about what a bunch of deviants hopped up on anti-depressants have to say.

	22-12-2004 03:57									#104
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quote: Originally posted by MalevolentLight You know I was going to write here a response about how the ACLU can't be trusted and is a hypocritical organization that supports NAMBLA and collects data on its members and donors all the while accusing corporations of doing the same thing and whines about the military posing as FBI agents when interrogating terrorists, which they say is torture...but then I realized I am speaking to a fringe group of people that are outcasts of society who have nowhere else to be heard except on a forum where they whine about how society has wronged them and how the rich must give them money and so I decided it would be better to just let you continue whining here in vain since it obviously isn't affecting anyone. Die or disappear into oblivion, for no one cares about what a bunch of deviants hopped up on anti-depressants have to say.

Well that would make you an outcast among outcasts, the fringe of the fringe, wouldn't it?

By the way... periods are your friend.

	22-12-2004 04:00									#105
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I don't believe that the torture of prisoners will be a political issue in the US within the forseeable future. I doubt that more than a small fraction of the population cares. If the government of Iraq can't be stabilized after the upcoming election and the light at the end of the tunnel begins to fade, then the American people will be concerned.

	22-12-2004 04:08									#106
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I think Doc is sadly correct- most people don;t care about torture of people they label criminals or enemies from the start. Now, the diplomatic and international political ramifications, while small, are going to be bigger than the domestic ones.

	22-12-2004 04:17									#107
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Yeah, sadly most Americans don't realize what a freaking good recruiting tool it was for Al Queda showing the prisoners at Abu Ghirab with hoods on and being forced to do some horrible things.

	22-12-2004 04:22									#108
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Probably about as good of a recruiting tool as showing prisoners with hoods on their heads and then their heads being chopped off. But then again, you're a dirty disgusting muslim Imram and you portray the typical muslim perfectly. That is why your disgusting religion will someday be wiped from the face of the Earth because eventually there will come a day when the practices of muslims will no longer be tolerated.

	22-12-2004 04:24									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Yeah, sadly most Americans don't realize what a freaking good recruiting tool it was for Al Queda showing the prisoners at Abu Ghirab with hoods on and being forced to do some horrible things.

Totally.

It was actually a very informed thing what they did (the American soldiers). It was no accident that they happened to violate every cultural norm and sensibility in what they did. I've read some reports that they actually got most of their ideas from an ethnography written by an anthropologist in the 1970s regarding Arab taboos. And the fact that it was so informed the way it was carried out makes it pretty much certain that it was a decision from higher ups... not just some "bad soldiers".

Just another instance of Anthropology used for evil.

	22-12-2004 04:24									#110
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quote: Originally posted by MalevolentLight Probably about as good of a recruiting tool as showing prisoners with hoods on their heads and then their heads being chopped off. But then again, you're a dirty disgusting muslim Imram and you portray the typical muslim perfectly. That is why your disgusting religion will someday be wiped from the face of the Earth because eventually there will come a day when the practices of muslims will no longer be tolerated.

Edit: Ming, this has got to be grounds for a ban.

	22-12-2004 04:34									#111
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I am greatly amused by those that think that having a hood placed over your head, or being put in a quiet dark room, or forced to stand for four or five hours is torture.

	22-12-2004 04:39									#112
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Jimmy you characterize liberals perfectly...whinning to a higher power like the government or a moderator when you don't like what's being said. Kind of like political corectness but only it's on a computer. Weak people like you make me sick.

	22-12-2004 04:39									#113
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Then why have courts called it torture?

	22-12-2004 04:39									#114
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO I am greatly amused by those that think that having a hood placed over your head, or being put in a quiet dark room, or forced to stand for four or five hours is torture.

Because it is... at least legally speaking.

Besides, Plato, there is more to this than just breaking the law or not. The whole reason we have rules like this, with international treaties that we signed, is to prevent it from happening to our soldiers too.

What kind of moral authority does the US have to denounce beheadings when we engage our POWs in sexual torture and other kinds of inhumane treatment?

	22-12-2004 04:41									#115
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO I am greatly amused by those that think that having a hood placed over your head, or being put in a quiet dark room, or forced to stand for four or five hours is torture.

The combination of many elements like these, on a systematic basis, is torture.

If you add up sleep deprivation, forced standing, psychological humiliation, lack of contact with the outer world, etc, for monthes, it is actual torture. It is btw what the Soviets inflicted to their political prisoners.

	22-12-2004 04:43									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Would you want to be subjected to some of that?

Would you want to be put in a jail cell?

Do you want to pay taxes?

	22-12-2004 04:43									#117
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Damn, Spiffor, throwing down the gauntlet! Saying it was just like what the Soviets did (and they did). Very well done .

	22-12-2004 04:47									#118
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Would you want to be put in a jail cell? Do you want to pay taxes?

Hmmm... somehow paying taxes and having a broom handle shoved up your rectum isn't quite the same. Or being subjugated to sensory deprivation for days on end...

	22-12-2004 04:47									#119
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Uh, JCC, read what I was replying to before trying to make smartass remarks.

	22-12-2004 04:54									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Uh, JCC, read what I was replying to before trying to make smartass remarks.

You were replying to UR who was replying to Shi's post saying what is being reported isn't torture. Please enlighten me if this isn't the case.