22-12-2004 04:57									#121
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UR said:

quote: Would you want to be subjected to some of that?

Which is an incredibly stupid measure of whether something is torture. I pointed that out.

	22-12-2004 06:02									#122
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You'll have to cut and paste, I couldn't get the link to work. http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4989481/ from May!

An interesting commentary on how the Senate defined torture in 1994.
www.globalpolicy.org/intljustice/general/2004/0511brutal.htm

Plus you had JAG lawyers getting their own private opinion because the memos coming out of the civilian DOD had them so nervous.
www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0405/S00104.htm
www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1968808
Oh, and for you uber-conservative, more from The Washington Times, not exactly a liberal mouthpiece.
www.benadorassociates.com/article/4414


I loathe the utter idiocy of it. I have trouble believing that this administration, in the world of today, could be so STUPID as to assume you can keep things like this secret. They left a paper trail, the damn fools, that could be used as a public relations bonanza to recruit for Al quaeda and similiar organizations around the world. Even if they could keep it secret now, how long could they keep it one? Cretins. American soldiers will get to die for their incompetency, while they will go on to national office. I wish I had a puke smiley.

Please note that the Bush administration is comfortable floating the idea of Gonzales as one of their top next Supreme Court nominees! He might be able to move Taney up from the bottom rung of Supreme Court justices. I find it utterly terrifying, that Scalia could become the spokesman for civil liberties on SCOTUS as the current justices die out. :eek

edit forgot to eliminate a phrase when editing sentence earlier

Last edited by shawnmmcc on 22-12-2004 at 06:39

	22-12-2004 06:33									#123
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quote: Originally posted by ixnay Surprised nobody's posted about this section yet: quote: Another e-mail, dated December 2003, describes an incident in which Defense Department interrogators at Guantánamo Bay impersonated FBI agents while using "torture techniques" against a detainee. The e-mail concludes "If this detainee is ever released or his story made public in any way, DOD interrogators will not be held accountable because these torture techniques were done [sic] the ‘FBI’ interrogators. The FBI will [sic] left holding the bag before the public." Am I the only one somewhat troubled by the DoD planning to pin everything on another government agency?

Sorry, we STILL glanced over this after you posted it . I think this shows that the DoD realized they were doing wrong things. They wanted the people to blame the FBI and then they'd get off scot free, realizing that the FBI would be the one charged with violating the law.

	22-12-2004 07:05									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker UR said: quote: Would you want to be subjected to some of that? Which is an incredibly stupid measure of whether something is torture. I pointed that out.

No it isn't. The spirit behind torture laws is: if you wouldn't want it done to you (or your troops), don't do it to them. Kind of like the "do unto others" thing.

	22-12-2004 07:27									#125
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn Because it is... at least legally speaking. Besides, Plato, there is more to this than just breaking the law or not. The whole reason we have rules like this, with international treaties that we signed, is to prevent it from happening to our soldiers too. What kind of moral authority does the US have to denounce beheadings when we engage our POWs in sexual torture and other kinds of inhumane treatment?

Jimmy, sexual torture is not something I mentioned...nor did the article. I still don't understand why these things(hooding, sensory deprivation, and standing) are torture...very coersive yes, but torture? Maybe I just don't understand the definition.

	22-12-2004 07:28									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor The combination of many elements like these, on a systematic basis, is torture. If you add up sleep deprivation, forced standing, psychological humiliation, lack of contact with the outer world, etc, for monthes, it is actual torture. It is btw what the Soviets inflicted to their political prisoners.

Becoming more like those we loath? Perhaps that is the terrorist greatest victory.

	22-12-2004 07:44									#127
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn No it isn't. The spirit behind torture laws is: if you wouldn't want it done to you (or your troops), don't do it to them. Kind of like the "do unto others" thing.

That rule applies equally to imprisonment and taxes.

	22-12-2004 08:06									#128
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO Maybe I just don't understand the definition.

Well, what's your definition? Could you give a few examples? Does your torture require permanent physical mutilation or something?

	22-12-2004 08:18									#129
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither yadda, yadda, yadda. Keep your impure thoughts to yourself, Ted. I'm not interested. And I'm still waiting to see where the authorisation to beat, and rape, and murder is. Sorry, Ted, sleep deprivation don't cut it for a scandle.

Why don't you stay up for several weeks straight locked up in a cell with bright lights and water thrown on you and then report back to us how you did.

Cool?

	22-12-2004 08:19									#130
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom Actually Ted, I seem to recall a few complaints from your side of the pond about the abuses of human rights and the torture meted out to the 'freedom loving' I.R.A. terrorists. Probably to do with those Irish American voters, and rather less to do with a concern for human rights.

I agree.

	22-12-2004 08:21									#131
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quote: Originally posted by mindseye Whether this was torture or just nastiness is not that terribly important. As has been widely noted, whatever this behavior was, the fact that it was condoned at such a high level has been devastating to America's effectiveness as a human rights champion. The US now has little credibility in criticizing China's human right's record, for instance. Thoses photos of hooded, wired figures damaged America's reputation and influence abroad in ways that will take many years to undo. It outrages me that these neocon buffoons have deliberately and unashamedly squandered what was once something Americans could be proud of.

Somebody gets it.

I will go even further to say that what happened at Abu Gharib WAS A DIRECT RESULT of the culture that was set forth from the very highest level.

No, the Administration did not tell the soldiers at Abu Gharib to do the terrible things that they did, but they stretched the envelope to a point where is should not have ever gone, making it much easier for something like what happen to happen.

	22-12-2004 08:22									#132
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO Becoming more like those we loath? Perhaps that is the terrorist greatest victory.

Agreed.
The terrorists didn't destroy your country, they didn't destroy your resolve, but they contributed to bring up such changes in the American society that one could say they have won in this regard.

Actually, an Israeli argued exactly the same: that the way Israel fights the dirty war against Palestinian terrorist destroys the "spirit of Zionism", the legacy of enlightenment Israel is supposed to bear. If you're interested in that line of argument, you may want to check out the speeches of Avram Burg (sp?)

	22-12-2004 08:25									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove I don't believe that the torture of prisoners will be a political issue in the US within the forseeable future. I doubt that more than a small fraction of the population cares. If the government of Iraq can't be stabilized after the upcoming election and the light at the end of the tunnel begins to fade, then the American people will be concerned.

You know what I used to get pissed at the Arab and Muslim world that they weren't OUTRAGED everytime someone got their head cut off.

I mean that just made me livid to see those images, and even more livid to see the lack of response in the Middle East.

But then I saw the Abu Gharib problem and most of the American people just sat on their ass like nothing ever happened.

So who are we to judge?

	22-12-2004 08:25									#134
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO Jimmy, sexual torture is not something I mentioned...nor did the article. I still don't understand why these things(hooding, sensory deprivation, and standing) are torture...very coersive yes, but torture? Maybe I just don't understand the definition.

My definition is anything that the cops in the United States wouldn't be allowed to do to someone they have in custody or have arrested.

But you are putting a very light face on what they're doing, ie. just standing, wearing a hood, or being in a dark room. Its not nearly so benign. You're acting like these people have no rights.

And as far as sexual torture, whether or not its in your article, it IS something that has been practised in Iraq, namely, Abu Gharib

	22-12-2004 08:29									#135
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quote: Originally posted by St Leo quote: Originally posted by PLATO Maybe I just don't understand the definition. Well, what's your definition? Could you give a few examples? Does your torture require permanent physical mutilation or something?

Well it certainly involves more than discomfort. That's a good question however. There seems to be some subjective measure to what constitutes torture. I would certainly say that physical abuse is torture. Of course, then you get into "what is the definition of abuse?" I don't know at what level mental abuse would be torture though. I would think that their is probably more acceptence of mental abuse than physical abuse. Still...a very interesting question indeed.

	22-12-2004 08:32									#136
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Here's an example of something that is legal to do under this order.

A nice combination of humiliation, forced position, hood/sensory depravation.

Doesn't look like torture to me.

Attachment: new-toture5.jpg
This has been downloaded 49 time(s).

	22-12-2004 08:42									#137
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One more thing to add.

There are rampant rumors that the International Red Cross is preparing a report that indicts the Administration for systematic use of torture.

Systematic means not a couple of bad apples. It means widespread, "acceptable" practices.

	22-12-2004 08:44									#138
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My veteran Grandfather says the US treated the Nazi prisoners better.

	22-12-2004 08:45									#139
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quote: Originally posted by ixnay Surprised nobody's posted about this section yet: quote: Another e-mail, dated December 2003, describes an incident in which Defense Department interrogators at Guantánamo Bay impersonated FBI agents while using "torture techniques" against a detainee. The e-mail concludes "If this detainee is ever released or his story made public in any way, DOD interrogators will not be held accountable because these torture techniques were done [sic] the ‘FBI’ interrogators. The FBI will [sic] left holding the bag before the public." Am I the only one somewhat troubled by the DoD planning to pin everything on another government agency?

More from the FBI:

FBI Agents have been filing repeated complaints of witnessing torture of detainees in both Iraq and Cuba

The guy I am watching is from the New York Times and the show is the McNeill Lehrer News Hour

AND YES THIS INCLUDES BEATINGS

FBI Agents reactions:

"appalled"
"professionally offended"
"does not produce results"

	22-12-2004 08:49									#140
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quote: Originally posted by mindseye The US now has little credibility in criticizing China's human right's record, for instance.

You and Ted act as if the US government or even the American people in general actually gave a **** about China's human rights record. What with thier allowing them into the WTO, supporting thier bid for the Olympics, buying thier cheap useless junk.

	22-12-2004 08:49									#141
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn Edit: Ming, this has got to be grounds for a ban.

Don't count on it, ML has been allowed to get away with such filth for some time now. Yet posting a pic of two men hugging can lead to a ban...

	22-12-2004 08:50									#142
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc You and Ted act as if the US government or even the American people in general actually gave a **** about China's human rights record. What with thier allowing them into the WTO, supporting thier bid for the Olympics, buying thier cheap useless junk.

You're the one that always brings up Tiannemen Square


Besides I wasn't specifically referring to China, even though that was the example mindseye brought up, because he lives there, but more about us *****ing about human rights in general

You know like when people get their heads cut off

	22-12-2004 08:50									#143
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quote: Originally posted by Sava My veteran Grandfather says the US treated the Nazi prisoners better.

Well, not at Dachau, they didn't...

	22-12-2004 08:56									#144
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker but more about us *****ing about human rights in general

The samething applies to most "bad" regimes we don't have under active sanctions. The Saudis being the prime example.

	22-12-2004 09:19									#145
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Well, yeah

	22-12-2004 09:21									#146
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc The samething applies to most "bad" regimes we don't have under active sanctions. The Saudis being the prime example.

YOU MEAN GEORGE W BUSH'S FAMILY'S BOSOM BUDDIES!?!?!?!?!?

	22-12-2004 10:04									#147
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quote: Originally posted by MalevolentLight Probably about as good of a recruiting tool as showing prisoners with hoods on their heads and then their heads being chopped off... *devolves into hate speech*

Wow. Just... wow. In my what, five years here, this is probably the first time I've completely lost any respect for a member of this community, and it's the first time I've ever come close to ignoring anyone.

Neither HARDMAN nor Fez ever became this offensive.

Hell, I remember getting banned for:
1. saying MNG's stupid OMFG T3H APPL3 !S G0D threads were annoying and more geared to /.
2. making a point about racism and using the term camel j* and saying that brown people aren't good with democracy.

	22-12-2004 10:16									#148
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quote: Originally posted by Sava YOU MEAN ...

Sava is an annoyance? Yes, that's what I mean.

	22-12-2004 10:22									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Sava My veteran Grandfather says the US treated the Nazi prisoners better.

They were white.

	22-12-2004 10:39									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker You're the one that always brings up Tiannemen Square

We're not deliberately running over nonviolent protestors with tanks.