28-12-2004 13:33									#241
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Impressive yet again :B:

	28-12-2004 15:28									#242
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We're going to need a navy just to get our troops home - unless Lego agree to a quick peace, and I don't see them doing us any early favours in that regard.

Their escape pod may be heading for ND - perhaps they've offered ND their UN vote in exchange for survival. It would tend to pitch GS and GoW against them, though.

Maybe it's in our interests for GoW to have Computers sooner rather than later. ND already have it, and if they see GoW doesn't have it yet, they might be tempted to make hay while the sun shines. If they gutted GoW now, the game is as good as theirs.

	28-12-2004 17:18									#243
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I'm not so pessimistic on a ND-Lego alliance. After all, they needed to decide this in 1 turn time. This is not enough for ND to have a decent invasion force, let alone an invasion plan. Lego might try to get them into a war, but what troops are on those boats?

- 3 settlers
- 31 inf
- 6 tanks (damaged except 1)
- 10 artillery

That's even less than what RP was going to bring.

If there was a plan all along that ND would sneak up on us or on GoW, Lego can only help, of course. But I doubt it.

DeepO

	28-12-2004 17:19									#244
	Put an end to popups!

BTW, don't forget that Lego is actually team Zargon right now. I have the feeling this is simply a bit of emotional vendetta.

DeepO

	28-12-2004 17:44									#245
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movement continued
I used the explorer to scout the rest of the coast (no mp lost). We can't spot the transports. so the Abilene group (including the 3 DDs, as they didn't sunk when taking the city) is most likely on Abilene 11111.

Given the destroyed GoW blocker, I'm inclined to believe there are 2 groups of transports (maybe even 3), and that the other group is on either side of the isthmus, in less than 3 tiles from Panama Vox. Maybe 4.

I suggest we take an explorer, and move him onto the coal near Panama Vox, and then 78622. That should end him in neutral territory, while covering most of the coast.

In case we spot Lego on our side, good. Otherwise we ask GoW to block the inner sea asap.

For the Southern group we can do the following:
we need to destroy those 2 ships closeby. We can forget about the Lego CV, as they don't have bombers anymore. The 2 damaged ships are there as decoys, and are positioned so that we can't reach it with the ships on hub 2. But we've got no choice, IMHO. So, we use the 2 fighters to bomb the 2/5 BB, and use the 2/4 DDs to attack it. We could use another 1/4 DD to bombard if possible.

The full health DD on Hub 2 moves 22222. This should bring it into range of the group if they decide to sail for our coast directly. Other hub protectors stay where they are. We won't have subscouts, but not much to be done about that now. Further, we can use the fighter on the damaged CV in NI to bomb the group, maybe get a hp off the DDs.

Last measure: we shortrush to knight in Tornado, and build a DD there next turn (whould work out near perfectly). With an extra mine, and the dyes we should get with a new dye city(need WLTKD), we can do the same in Typhoon. That should give us 2 fresh DDs, and 1 pursueing one... enough for at least 3 transports, even 4.

If the 3/4 CV is also in pursuit, we can rebase the bomber we'll build in Tempest there next turn, which can also help in the attack.

We then still have 1 DD left: the one we built in Blizzard last turn. It can't protect our chain (a pity, as otherwise we could chain our chain-DDs), but either it goes after the sub who sank the Nina, or if we spot the Northern Lego group on our side it can move in that direction (maybe going for the IR that was there at the start of the war, although it may be at the other end of the world right now). Or, it can move directly South and help in fending off the Southern group.

Actually, in case the Northern group is on our side, and not in the internal sea, we could leave them for a moment. We are fully protected there: Lego doesn't have marines, and we've got plenty of workers guarding our coast. The only problem is RP... they are practically undefended. And Vox might try something silly as well.

DeepO

	28-12-2004 18:04									#246
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What do we have left regarding decisions?
1. placement of Dye city
2. slave actions
3. blockade of Panama stretch
4. GoW diplomacy
5. espionage

1. placement of Dye city.

I think the following covers most possible positions.
We need to take a couple of things into account:
- we want immediate access to dyes, and permanent access to dyes. A city on a source is better then one next to a source. a,c,e preferred.
- we want at least 2 sources, preferably 3. (one source going to RP, 3 to be traded with ND for their 3rd lux) This rules out g, as we could lose a second source with cultural extension of Port Sacrifice
- a harbor or not is a decision we might want to take... a harbor would give us a jumping board to GoW and ND, but would also create a threat which we might want to avoid.
- If at all possible, we want to avoid bumping into GoW. a and c are poorer choices, as we force GoW to be culturally agressive, or they could lose their sources.
- last consideration is culture flipping. But I guess we'll have enough garrisons there to keep that from happening.

I see this city as something to negotiate with the coming turns, and maybe come to a conclusion of gifting it to RP or Vox. This can also affect where we want to put it, but without any doubt do we want to have a lux this turn, so next turn our cities get into WLTKD.

DeepO

	28-12-2004 18:07									#247
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2. Slave actions.

we could set a few apart to move back to Stormia, but there are some worker actions needed on Legoland.
- We need to get a road to Abilene if we want to keep it
- we need a RR into NI
- we might need a radar tower, or at least a fortress near our blockade of Panama.
- we might want to move 2 slaves on top of the rubber resource, so we can connect it next turn if we want to.

DeepO

	28-12-2004 18:15									#248
	Inflate your Upload Space

3. Panama blockade

BTW: the red line indicates the explorer path I'd like to take to spot for a possible Northern group.

I'd like us to do the following:
- move a group of defenders (MI, inf) to position b.
- move one unit (e.g. an explorer) to position c.
(this to avoid GoW blocking us, we don't need that!)
- than, 2 choices: either we build a fortress at b and a radar tower at c,
or we build a radar tower at b without a fortress.

Eventually, I see a city on position b, which would take the coal source with one cultural expansion. As it creates a massive strategical advantage, we might want to try to keep it (although it doesn't do us much good offensively, as GoW can block the other side of the inner sea with ease. But defensively it can count)

DeepO

	28-12-2004 18:19									#249
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4. GoW diplomacy I'm not sure on. We need to talk, and we need to start negotiating on dividing the land. In order to do this, we need to think on what we want as well. There has been a lot said about this the past 2 weeks, but not nearly enough.

in no particular priority, I'll give some things we want on Legoland
- land
- resources (especially rubber)
- dyes
- RP?
- security (e.g. Panama)

We need to talk fast, as we're taking actions here like e.g. blockading Panama, or founding a new dye city, which might offend GoW.

DeepO

	28-12-2004 18:21									#250
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5. Espionage
I'd like to do 2 things immediately. Try to plant spies with Vox and ND.
Vox costs us 102 g
ND costs us 129 g.

GoW we'd better wait before we try again.

Out of completeness, a spy in RP costs us 74 g... I doubt we need one for the moment, though.

DeepO

	28-12-2004 18:21									#251
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:applause:

	28-12-2004 18:30									#252
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6. Stormia!
some plans for decorating our home for the christmas period (a bit late, but hey)
- plant some christmas tress on Eli 7 and 8
- change Monsoon to civil defense
- change Ww to civil defense (after MI perhaps)
- we might need to disband Velocity. It gives us 5 coastal tiles we otherwise couldn't use, but takes away from Elipolis.
- we might also look into disbanding WW.
- Hurricane might be set to DD instead of airport. will complement our Southern strike force nicely.

we have 1 airport, and will build 3 more next turn. We have another 3 planned in 2 turns, and 1 in 3 turns. I suggest to lower the amount of airports to 5 overall, instead of 8. We might need one in Elipolis for defensive reasons, though: fighters heal quicker.

DeepO

	28-12-2004 18:43									#253
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I'll leave this to sink in for the moment. 2 things aren't mentioned explicitely in the latest round up, but they have been discussed before and are rather straight forwards.

7. land attacks
- first of all, try our luck at some leader generation. You never know we get lucky. I suggest we use a 4/4 tank on the first 4/4 tank, using 3/4 tanks on the rest. Leave the 1/4 as last. We need to leave the 2/4 tank as second last unit, in case we get 2 elite promotions. If so, we want to shell it first to 1/4.
- second, shell the last stack of Lego units, and launch an all-out attack on them with our tanks. 1/4 inf and 2/4 tanks can be attacked by MI as well, the rest we use tanks, 3/4 if necessary (I doubt it). Primary goal would be to keep GoW from using their elites, they've got plenty of them, and would have a decent chance of generating a leader.

DeepO

	28-12-2004 18:46									#254
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Oh, add to 6. Stormia:
- upgrade what we can to MI.

- 25 infs * 40 g = 1000 g
- 20 rifles * 60 g = 1200 g
so for 2200 g, we get an extra 45 MI, totalling 81.
We've got 3194 g to spend right about now (but will need a bit for the knights shortrushes and the spy droppings)

DeepO

	28-12-2004 18:48									#255
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we can't upgrade all our infs this turn, BTW. Some are stuck on Legoland, and can't be chained back.

DeepO

	28-12-2004 19:23									#256
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I think we should place the Dye city 222 of PS. Just claim 1 Dye for us right now and wait for final city placements until we can discuss it fully with GoW.

Panama city is a good idea, but we only have 1 Settler this turn right? I think we should disband a 1/4 Transport in Abilene and rush a Settler for next turn from it.

I still think that chaining back 8 I is what we should do. Either that or 8 of the damaged Tanks if we don't use them this turn. The more MI we have over on Lego, the more difficult it's going to be for GoW to get ideas...

For much the same reason I think we should leave the N Lego stack untouched. Sure we could take them out, but we'd end up with almost everything we have on Lego exposed next turn, and most of it injured. If there are still enemy units for GoW to play with, they are less likely to get ideas. The leader shots we are giving GoW aren't that important IMO. By my count they have 2 Elite Tanks, a 1/5 and a 2/5. So they would have 2 shots at leaders from them. They could use Marines too. They have a 4/5, and 2 3/5s. So at most they are getting 5 shots at leaders. In exchange we are taking 10-15 fewer losses (some of which would be Tank retreats though) and have another 10-15 fewer units damaged and exposed. GoW with it's bombardment won't take many losses doing the same thing.

	28-12-2004 19:31									#257
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They do have some Elite Riders too. Do we know how many? There are 3 exposed right now. That brings the tally up to 8 shots at a MGL, but 2-3 of those fights will probably be lost.

I still think that if we give GoW an MGL we're better off letting GoW hit the N stack though.

	28-12-2004 19:32									#258
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Oh, and that 2/5 Tank can't make it there as it's stuck next to Abilene.

	28-12-2004 19:33									#259
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson I think we should place the Dye city 222 of PS. Just claim 1 Dye for us right now and wait for final city placements until we can discuss it fully with GoW.

That's the other option, yes. But we do give them something here: even if we are better in culture, we only claim 2 sources, while they have a guaranteed 3. If we do this, we have to make sure they know we do it deliberately to give them something, and that they don't see it as a sign of weakness.

quote: Panama city is a good idea, but we only have 1 Settler this turn right? I think we should disband a 1/4 Transport in Abilene and rush a Settler for next turn from it.

Yes, only one settler. Consider the scrapping of a transport in Abilene done.

quote: I still think that chaining back 8 I is what we should do. Either that or 8 of the damaged Tanks if we don't use them this turn. The more MI we have over on Lego, the more difficult it's going to be for GoW to get ideas...

Didn't I tell this somewhere? Aeson, no need to convince me, I agree we should chain 8 infs over. I prefer these over tanks, as we need to get them upgraded asap. In case GoW gets any ideas, we lose our rubber again.

quote: For much the same reason I think we should leave the N Lego stack untouched. Sure we could take them out, but we'd end up with almost everything we have on Lego exposed next turn, and most of it injured. If there are still enemy units for GoW to play with, they are less likely to get ideas. The leader shots we are giving GoW aren't that important IMO. By my count they have 2 Elite Tanks, a 1/5 and a 2/5. So they would have 2 shots at leaders from them. They could use Marines too. They have a 4/5, and 2 3/5s. So at most they are getting 5 shots at leaders. In exchange we are taking 10-15 fewer losses (some of which would be Tank retreats though) and have another 10-15 fewer units damaged and exposed. GoW with it's bombardment won't take many losses doing the same thing.

You forget a couple of units... cavs and riders. They can chain another 8 over to Legoland without any problem. Those can be 8 elites. with their bombardment, they won't lose units, and even have good chances with elite riders against 1/4 infs. They have 5 shots for sure given your numbers, but I assume they will have 12 shots if we leave 12 units. That's on average 1 GL, if I'm not mistaken.

DeepO

	28-12-2004 19:37									#260
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Damn... okay, a decision to make. I clicked in the civ screen (my game is still open), and somehow I ordered the new sub from WoC to move in the direction of Elipolis (it;s at Eli 66 now). This was not the intention, of course.

I'm not sure if this is a legit reason to replay the save up to this point or not. I can make sure we are hit by the ZoC again, I think. This was a mistake, of course, no reason to move that sub...

OTOH, it won't matter much either. It would have prefered that sub to move 663 to spot for Lego subs, but we've got one in Inchoff already. And we can use more subs in the sea between us and Bob.

So, do I replay for this?

DeepO

	28-12-2004 19:42									#261
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Thinking on this, we might want to change something in WoC. Currently, we're building a sub there for next turn, and I would suggest we build something naval. However, with a forest and 40 gold, we can build a DD instead. (forest chop, rush to explorer, set to DD). That might be more helpful if we want to deal with a possible N fleet.

DeepO

	28-12-2004 19:43									#262
	Inflate your Upload Space

I don't think they can have any Elite Cavalry. There hasn't been any warfare since we left Bob. I don't know how many Riders they have, but like I said, even if we were to give them a sure Leader (which we aren't...) I think it's better for us to save units.

The number of luxuries is unimportant IMO. We need one for use, and it would be nice to have 1 to trade to ND. A landgrab from us at this stage, even if just in GoW's perception, could easily mean we lose the game. Definitely not worth the risk to claim more than we have to until it has been thoroughly discussed with GoW.

	28-12-2004 19:52									#263
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I think we can use a couple more Subs, not right now though. I wouldn't mind 2-3 Battleship builds from WoC. For right now I wouldn't send our Subs out of the cities. If we spot Lego's Sub we basically have just allowed them to sink our's because we'd have nothing to sink it with first.

	28-12-2004 19:54									#264
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson I don't think they can have any Elite Cavalry. There hasn't been any warfare since we left Bob. I don't know how many Riders they have, but like I said, even if we were to give them a sure Leader (which we aren't...) I think it's better for us to save units.

You're right on the elite cavs... there haven't been any barbs either. And seeing the riders they brought, it might be everything they had.

I'm not sure on giving them a GL...
Let's see. if they go for a wonder, they still have 7 options:
- UN. If they go for that, they know they can win with the votes, meaning we can't anyway. However, if we want a UN win, it would keep us from launching a vote. Hmmm.
- SETI: useless wonder. Adds another 60 or so commerce, but at this point that is peanuts.
- Internet: definately worth a leader, but seeing that we're researching it, we should also get a shot at prebuilding it, and timing that so that we don't run into problems.
- the last 2 wonders will likely never be researched
- Palaca move seems not the best choice
- SS part is unneccesary either.
- army gives them the ability to build armies themselves... maybe the most useful option to them. But then again, armies aren't that powerful either

You might be right. A leader is not so important, the lost units (some 5 or so, probably) is. But before we do this, we might need to contact GoW and make sure they are willing to go for those units.

quote: The number of luxuries is unimportant IMO. We need one for use, and it would be nice to have 1 to trade to ND. A landgrab from us at this stage, even if just in GoW's perception, could easily mean we lose the game. Definitely not worth the risk to claim more than we have to until it has been thoroughly discussed with GoW.

Yes, I agree, but if we only claim 1, leaving 3 guarantees to GoW and a 4th maybe, we will appear weak.
No matter how this goes, we need contact with GoW over this issue. Maybe it's better to ask for something before settling a city... that doesn't have to be a question, we could e.g. say "Hey, we want to settle that tile as we want the lux next turn. Do you have any problems with this?"

DeepO

	28-12-2004 19:57									#265
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson I think we can use a couple more Subs, not right now though. I wouldn't mind 2-3 Battleship builds from WoC. For right now I wouldn't send our Subs out of the cities. If we spot Lego's Sub we basically have just allowed them to sink our's because we'd have nothing to sink it with first.

BBs... now that's something else. WoC can build BBs every 2 turns while in mob. And yes, we can use those.

What about the sub that moved without me wanting it, do I replay for this? I propose to leave it as is.

Oh, and Lego subs: the one that sank the Nina is 1/4, and can't heal. it would be welcome to attack a full health sub (a transport too, BTW)

DeepO

	28-12-2004 19:59									#266
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I think we should place the city and send GoW a message that we've done so to temporarily claim a luxury for our own use until we've had a chance to discuss the division of Lego's land.

	28-12-2004 20:01									#267
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We could move the Sub out of Inchoff 663 and move the DD up to cover it. We do need to start clearing for Subs, and it might be best to do so before Lego can get all it's ships together.

	28-12-2004 20:03									#268
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Hurricane might be a good spot to build a Sub this turn. We could use one down there near the chain.

	28-12-2004 20:04									#269
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson I think we should place the city and send GoW a message that we've done so to temporarily claim a luxury for our own use until we've had a chance to discuss the division of Lego's land.

DeepO

	28-12-2004 20:06									#270
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson We could move the Sub out of Inchoff 663 and move the DD up to cover it. We do need to start clearing for Subs, and it might be best to do so before Lego can get all it's ships together.

Only problem is that this means we'll need to send our transports over our chain unprotected for the time being. No sub scouting, as otherwise our DDs get out of position. We better use the full health DD on Hub 2 to assist in the South, whih leaves us no room for anything else.

DeepO