23-12-2004 21:16									#61
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro You can't separate them from the context in which they are produced and aired.

The context being farfetched made-for-TV melodrama.

	23-12-2004 21:23									#62
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....the problem is that it is not that farfetched for some. And that has nothing to do with Arabs (edit: oh yeah, its Iranians here ) being generally stupid, but with the availability of alternative sources.

	23-12-2004 21:26									#63
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd In what way? They both serve as "midday melodrama" and both have the effect of drawing an audiance which watches out of a curious fasination with how ridiculously bizzare and far-fetched it can be... and maybe a few complete morons who actually take it seriously and come away from it with completely distorted view of reality.

One is labeled fiction, the other is not. One is sold for commercial purposes. The others sole purpose is to incite hatred against a religious/ethnic group identified with enemies of the state.

Ludds defense would jusitfy 19th century blood libels, Goebells propaganda (godwin be damned). This IS a blood libel. And Im NOT sure that no one in that part of the world beleives it (i would defer to Oerdin, who has spent more time recently in that part of the world).

	23-12-2004 21:37									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Bebro ....the problem is that it is not that farfetched for some.

Nieher is far fetched, for some. They both thrive off superstition.

In Iran, the boogyeman is a Zionist.

In America, the boogeyman is anyone that's strange.

	23-12-2004 21:41									#65
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd Nieher is far fetched, for some. They both thrive off superstition. In Iran, the boogyeman is a Zionist. In America, the boogeyman is anyone that's strange.

I think we're getting somewhere.

I will say that in the US there are support groups for people with all sorts of exceptional qualities, (Ive had reason to learn in the past few months more than I ever would have wanted to know about the "twice exceptional" IE Gifted children with learning disabilities) Are there support groups for Zionists in Iran?

	23-12-2004 21:43									#66
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd In Iran, the boogyeman is a Zionist. In America, the boogeyman is anyone that's strange.

That's very simplistic. You can't ignore the general problems with anti-semitism in controlled media in the ME. That has serious consequences for the hate-filled climate in the region. The impact of some soap opera(s) in US tv is something completely different.

	23-12-2004 21:46									#67
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro That's very simplistic. You can't ignore the general problems with anti-semitism in controlled media in the ME. That has serious consequences for the hate-filled climate in the region. The impact of some soap opera(s) in US tv is something completely different.

No, bebro, I think we're missing something. There ARE people who are ostracized in the western democracies ( i think in Germany and Canada as well as the US) for problems with social skills, etc (IE "strange") This is quite a serious issue. I think some posters here may be particularly sensitive to it. While I still dont feel its comparable to the attitudes towards Jews in Iran, I certainly recognize validity to the sensitivity. Certainly at a games site, we should be sensitive to this.

	23-12-2004 21:51									#68
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What, didn't you know that Israeli Coke has palestinian kids' blood in it?

	23-12-2004 21:54									#69
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark No, bebro, I think we're missing something. There ARE people who are ostracized in the western democracies ( i think in Germany and Canada as well as the US) for problems with social skills, etc (IE "strange") This is quite a serious issue. I think some posters here may be particularly sensitive to it. While I still dont feel its comparable to the attitudes towards Jews in Iran, I certainly recognize validity to the sensitivity. Certainly at a games site, we should be sensitive to this.

We don't claim strange people decide to steal dozens of organs to transplant into one person*

*clearly, such a person would be strange, but that's a separate issue

	23-12-2004 21:57									#70
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark No, bebro, I think we're missing something. There ARE people who are ostracized in the western democracies ( i think in Germany and Canada as well as the US) for problems with social skills, etc (IE "strange") This is quite a serious issue.

Hm, but isn't it usually the thing that most of our tv productions are sooo politically correct in every way that it is rather boring? The only exception I can think of are some talkshows, when people flame eachother like there's no tomorrow, but beside this I can't remember anything special. Often being strange is rather sold as being something special, individual, crazy (in the positive sense). Of course that's from the German perspectice, we have only two public tv stations, and some dozen private stations.

	23-12-2004 22:06									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker We don't claim strange people decide to steal dozens of organs to transplant into one person* *clearly, such a person would be strange, but that's a separate issue

Yes, they just steal people's souls and turn them against their friends, while ploting to destroy all 'goodness' in society.



I'm not particularily concerned with the percieved message of these shows - I'm just pointing out this show is of the same breed as western soaps. And I don't ever see people going around worrying about the "messages" that soaps are spreading. Which is, of course, because these shows are just stupid and far fetched -anyone who believes the crap they talk about is a superstisious moron who probably thinks that way already.

	23-12-2004 22:07									#72
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quote: I'm just pointing out this show is of the same breed as western soaps.

What a silly thing to say.

-Arrian

	23-12-2004 22:09									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian What a silly thing to say. -Arrian

Why do you think that?


Do you believe american soaps to be of a higher callibre? Did you read the story line that I posted?

	23-12-2004 22:11									#74
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"Higher caliber?" No, not really. They're crap.

However, LotM said it well when he said:

quote: One is labeled fiction, the other is not. One is sold for commercial purposes. The others sole purpose is to incite hatred against a religious/ethnic group identified with enemies of the state.

-Arrian

	23-12-2004 22:11									#75
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Ludd, I'd say SW: Episode 1 isn't of higher caliber. It's apples and oranges.

	23-12-2004 22:15									#76
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Ha! It painted all Siths as evil!

	23-12-2004 22:17									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian "Higher caliber?" No, not really. They're crap. However, LotM said it well when he said: -Arrian

Try reading what I posted again, the parts that you didn't (mis)quote.

quote: I'm not particularily concerned with the percieved message of these shows - I'm just pointing out this show is of the same breed as western soaps. And I don't ever see people going around worrying about the "messages" that soaps are spreading. Which is, of course, because these shows are just stupid and far fetched -anyone who believes the crap they talk about is a superstisious moron who probably thinks that way already.

If we're woried about this speading hatred of the jews, why aren't we worried about Passions spreading paranoia of the occult and superstitious beliefs?

	23-12-2004 22:17									#78
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd Yes, they just steal people's souls and turn them against their friends, while ploting to destroy all 'goodness' in society. I'm not particularily concerned with the percieved message of these shows - I'm just pointing out this show is of the same breed as western soaps. And I don't ever see people going around worrying about the "messages" that soaps are spreading. Which is, of course, because these shows are just stupid and far fetched -anyone who believes the crap they talk about is a superstisious moron who probably thinks that way already.

I AM concerned with our societys emphasis on conformity, and difficulty accepting and nurturing different personality styles. Especially of people with ADD, NVLD, Social Anxiety Disorder, Aspergers, etc. Thats a big issue for us to address. I had no idea, however that there were demonized characters on soaps who were at all identfiable with members of these groups, the way the figures on Iranian TV are recognizable as Israelis AND as Jews. I am QUITE concerned - not sure that it could get me to watch the damned shows to check though (Wheres the vomit smiley when you need it?)

	23-12-2004 22:19									#79
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Siro, this propaganda is so off-the-wall as to be almost laughable. How do the people of Iran take this show? Is it viewed as a comedy? It has to be! Otherwise, the cruelty and viciousness of the Iranians is almost beyond belief.

	23-12-2004 22:22									#80
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quote: If we're woried about this speading hatred of the jews, why aren't we worried about Passions spreading paranoia of the occult and superstitious beliefs?

Because when it's "official" state propoganda, it's more worrisome than the soaps you mentioned (I will admit I wasn't familiar with soaps-for-Jesus style stuff such as you posted). Not that the soaps aren't worrisome at all, mind you. There ARE people who are supersitious morons and will believe that ****. Less than would believe government-sponsored propoganda, perhaps, but still kinda scary.

-Arrian

	23-12-2004 22:24									#81
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd If we're woried about this speading hatred of the jews, why aren't we worried about Passions spreading paranoia of the occult and superstitious beliefs?

Because there is a massive difference between spreading hatred of a people and a state, and carrying out a very old western narrative running since Constantine turned Christian about the dangers of Paganism and the occult (which by definition is something hidden and dark and sinister, hence it being occult).

Man, I said it before, you have issues to think these things the same.

	23-12-2004 22:25									#82
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i may have misinterpreted - Ludd wasnt concerned so much about demonizing "odd" personalities, but with Christian demonizing of wiccans, pagans, etc I take it? A concern, granted. We have however generally succeeded in stopping attempts to ban Harry Potter. Indeed it is encouraged in schools where I live.


Im really looking forward to the 6th book.

	23-12-2004 22:28									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Siro, this propaganda is so off-the-wall as to be almost laughable. How do the people of Iran take this show? Is it viewed as a comedy? It has to be! Otherwise, the cruelty and viciousness of the Iranians is almost beyond belief.

Err, what do Cruelty and Viciousness have to do with believing the lies of the State TV? I can understand it could show a gullibility, or a success by the Iranian State with its brainwashing machine, but how does it make Iranians "cruel" and "vicious".

	23-12-2004 22:56									#84
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Because there is a massive difference between spreading hatred of a people and a state, and carrying out a very old western narrative running since Constantine turned Christian about the dangers of Paganism and the occult (which by definition is something hidden and dark and sinister, hence it being occult). Man, I said it before, you have issues to think these things the same.

Let's see... one (supposedly) spreads hatred of zionists, the other (supposedly) spreads hatred of 'weirdos' 'strange people' and that senile old woman who lives down the street.

And are you suggesting that pagans are not people?

quote: Because when it's "official" state propoganda, it's more worrisome than the soaps you mentioned (I will admit I wasn't familiar with soaps-for-Jesus style stuff such as you posted).

Well, I'll agree that it would be worrisome to see a government do that (although that has little bearing on the show itself - which is what I have focused on). But has it been established that this is payed for and sponsored by the iranian government specifically for it's message and use as propaganda - or is it the equivelant of the government sponsoring "canadian content"?

I would find it very worrying if the iranian government thought of this as effective and useful propaganda, and only slightly less worrisome they just thought of it as quality television.

quote: may have misinterpreted - Ludd wasnt concerned so much about demonizing "odd" personalities, but with Christian demonizing of wiccans, pagans, etc I take it?

Well, it often goes hand in hand. Wiccans, pagans (as they are percieved by the christians who would hold this view), the socially awkward, and eccentrics, can all be used interchangebly as subtexts for one another, and often are.

It's really just anything 'strange' or 'suspicious' at all.

	23-12-2004 23:02									#85
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd Let's see... one (supposedly) spreads hatred of zionists, the other (supposedly) spreads hatred of 'weirdos' 'strange people' and that senile old woman who lives down the street. And are you suggesting that pagans are not people?

1. The Iranian show DOES attempt to spread hatred-that the point.

2. The comparison is absurd- distrust of the OTHER is ingrained into humanity. All societies warn its members about non-members, its an ancient tale.

Where the difference is most pronounced is in the fact that one show bases its OTHERS as being supernatural- what they do being a violation of nature. The Iranian show does NOT use supernatural elements- after all, kidnappings or organ harvesting is in no way unrealistic (China certainly farms its prisoner population for organs). So in order to create individual so vile as be be hated, they have to be explained as being supernaturally evil, while the Iranian shows shows "regular Jews" as being naturally evil.

	23-12-2004 23:08									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Err, what do Cruelty and Viciousness have to do with believing the lies of the State TV? I can understand it could show a gullibility, or a success by the Iranian State with its brainwashing machine, but how does it make Iranians "cruel" and "vicious".

Well, let's now think of what happened in the Third Reich 70 years ago. If the German people viewed the anti-Jew propaganda spewed by the government as laughable, they would not have been willing participants in what went on later during the war. But they did believe it, it seems. And they acted with viciousness and cruelty.

	23-12-2004 23:10									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Well, let's now think of what happened in the Third Reich 70 years ago. If the German people viewed the anti-Jew propaganda spewed by the government as laughable, they would not have been willing participants in what went on later during the war. But they did believe it, it seems. And they acted with viciousness and cruelty.

You could view propaganda as laughable while at the same time deciding you did not care if ypour regime did something out of sight, out of mind, which was the reaction of most Germans, and most Europeans, to what occured to the Jews.

Two different things, Participating in evil, and facilitating evil.

	23-12-2004 23:13									#88
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quote: Originally posted by GePap 1. The Iranian show DOES attempt to spread hatred-that the point. 2. The comparison is absurd- distrust of the OTHER is ingrained into humanity. All societies warn its members about non-members, its an ancient tale.

And in Iran the 'other' is a zionist.

quote: Where the difference is most pronounced is in the fact that one show bases its OTHERS as being supernatural- what they do being a violation of nature. The Iranian show does NOT use supernatural elements- after all, kidnappings or organ harvesting is in no way unrealistic.

in Zahra's Blue eyes, zionists are shown as believing that they are a gifted race who have been given the medical knowledge of transplantation and cloning (which is considered against nature) by god so that they can rebuild themselves.

And in what way are eye transplants realistic?

	23-12-2004 23:14									#89
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd Well, it often goes hand in hand. Wiccans, pagans (as they are percieved by the christians who would hold this view), the socially awkward, and eccentrics, can all be used interchangebly as subtexts for one another, and often are. It's really just anything 'strange' or 'suspicious' at all.

well suspicious people, by defintion, are worthy of suspicion. Not necessarily irrational, and certainly, as GePap says, a basic part of human nature. Its utopian to expect pop culture not to have bad guys, and not to overemphasize "suspicious" people as bad guys. Its NOT utopian to expect media to not demonize Jews, Wiccans, or folks with say, Aspergers.

As for the latter, the distinction is relevant - in the US (and I hope Canada and Germany) there IS a real societal effort, imperfect though it is, to HELP those with ADD, Social Anxiety, Aspergers, etc - including recognizing the positive aspects of those conditions (I recommend "Thinking in Pictures" wrt to Aspergers - I really doubt an equally positive picture of Zionism could be published in Iran) and certainly theres no formal attempt by ANY organized body to demonize these groups.

With Wiccans, as seen by fundy christians Im not so sure. Of course we do get to the issues of occult groups being "occult" and thus hidden by definition. Ive certainly seen dramatic changes in the way Wiccans and Pagans are viewed in US society since my childhood. Has there been any equivalent evolution in the position of Jews and Zionists in Iran?

	23-12-2004 23:15									#90
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quote: Originally posted by GePap You could view propaganda as laughable while at the same time deciding you did not care if ypour regime did something out of sight, out of mind, which was the reaction of most Germans, and most Europeans, to what occured to the Jews. Two different things, Participating in evil, and facilitating evil.

GePap, now you are believing European revisionism about what went on before 1945.