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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:16
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quote:
Originally posted by General Ludd
And in Iran the 'other' is a zionist.
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Good for you, have a cookie 
quote:
in Zahra's Blue eyes, zionists are shown as believing that they are a gifted race who have been given the medical knowledge of transplantation and cloning (which is considered against nature) by god so that they can rebuild themselves.
And in what way are eye transplants realistic? |
People believing things is still not supernatural- their evil is of this world, "actual" as opposed to "fictional". I doubt most people wathcing the soaps you mention believe in magic or witches of that kind, while, well, we know Jews exist. As for cloning, fine, against nature, but real, not fantasy anymore.
As for eyes transplants, we might get there-its not impossible scientifically, so its essentially pseduscience, not fantasy as in the other show.
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Spiffor
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CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
Well, let's now think of what happened in the Third Reich 70 years ago. If the German people viewed the anti-Jew propaganda spewed by the government as laughable, they would not have been willing participants in what went on later during the war. |
1. Most Germans didn't participate to the Holocaust. A small group of people participated, the SS. The others were busy waging war or producing weapons.
If anything, the mass of the German people associated to the pre-war persecutions, mostly when Jews were ostracized, and their property stolen.
I am not excusing the Germans. What they did was a crime beyond words, and they know it. However, the belief that they were inherently more vicious than other people is false.
2. With a sufficient manipulation, you can turn an ordinary human person into a killer. It's fairly easy. You have to successfully demonize the enemy, and you have to tell that person that they won't suffer any adverse effect from its violent actions (or "I'll take all responsibility").
To believe "those who commit atrocities are vicious" is false. The huge majority of humans has what it takes to commit atrocities, and the main reason we don't is because we live in a civilized society. It is more accurate to think "those who resist orders to commit atrocities are heroes".
I strongly suggest you to look at Milgram's experiment. Remember, his findings were worse than the most pessimistic expectations. And the guys he hired were perfectly normal Americans.
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:16
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there ARE sane people in Iran. Plenty of them.
and yes, I note it DID make on Iranian TV. Still an authoritarian society, not a totalitarian one, they didnt cover up the Presidents address.
"Iranian President Khatami Clashes with Reformist Students at Tehran University (Part II)
The following are excerpts from a report by Channel 1 of the Iranian TV of an address by Iranian President Mohammad Khatami to Tehran University students on Iranian Student Day. This is part II of Clip #401
Female student: Mr. Khatami, we have gathered here today to listen to what you have to say in your last year in office, but unfortunately none of the calls we made outside were heard inside. Not everyone could enter this hall. Outside there was a commotion. We were told that women would fill half the hall. Take a look! I consider you an honest man. Do women fill half the hall?
Just a minute. I didn't say this so you would clap or whistle. You've been sitting here comfortably since the morning. You didn't see what was going on outside. But something you should know about happened outside, Mr. Khatami. They closed the door and didn't let anyone in, until the door broke. With my own eyes I saw someone whose hand was cut by the glass. With all kinds of excuses they prevented us from entering by any of the doors. There was a man there - whom I don't see here - who insulted me in a way that I will not forget for the rest of my life, and I will pay him in kind, him and everyone else.
Moderator: Thank you. I am grateful.
Student:Look, Mr. Khatami
Moderator: One moment. One moment. I'd appreciate it if you would... the program must continue as planned.
Female student: This plan left everyone behind these doors. Your plan prevented us from entering. This was your plan... I don't know your last name, I think it's Mr. Qobadi...According to your plan, dear sir, whatever your name is - many people were crushed out there…
Crowd: Khatami, you turned your back on us!
Crowd: Khatami, you turned your back on us!
Crowd: Khatami, you turned your back on us!
Khatami: What are they saying?
Moderator: Some of the friends in the hall are expressing their opinion.
Crowd: Khatami, you turned your back on us!
Khatami: I don't understand what they are saying. Say it clearly so I can understand what you're saying.
Moderator: They are saying: "Khatami, you turned your back on us."
Khatami: No, no, no. Now my face is turned towards you.
I strongly believe that there is no other way to save the country except to establish democracy. We can preserve Islam only by preserving democracy. This is true only if our view of Islam is compatible with the principles of democracy. In the Islam I know, the vote of the people is not just a formality.
Crowd: Yes it is! Yes it is!
Khatami: The regime… The regime... Allow me… The regime with all its institutions relies upon the vote of the people.
Crowd: No it doesn't! No it doesn't!
Khatami: The main point of our friends' criticism is that Khatami used slogans that were then retracted. What slogan did I use and then retract? Allow me… Allow me…. There is room for debate.
Crowd: Free elections!
Khatami: And if…
Crowd: Free elections! Free elections! Free elections! - Free elections!
Khatami: OK, allow me... We can't discuss each issue separately. Wait till the end. Even if there was a retraction - I didn't give up to anyone or anything, except the regime in which I believe. As for those who claim that our problem lies in our being religious - first, they're saying nothing new. Second, they are very superficial. Others have said better things. Third, with this view, they are leading the country down a dangerous path."
Faster, please!!
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BeBro
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of the Krauts
Mar 2000
time: 06:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Azazel
quote:
The vast majority of Europeans and Germans had no direct participation in the Holocaust. What they did was say nothing and look the other way while it was going on.
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actually, most germans knew, and were for the holocaust, at the time. |
Actually, that is still a big discussion amongst historians, mainly because it is not easy to find sources which allow you to "measure" exactly the degree of support the Nazis had. Often the internal SD reports are used, but they also don't show exact numbers. AFAIK most historians agree though that Hitler himself had very high support even late in the war, but this has more to do with the image he gave himself, and with the irrational, pseudo-religious beliefs people related to him. Sure is that the Nazis could count on existing anti-Jewish feelings in Germany, but as said, those things are very difficult to quantify.
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
GePap, after a time, didn't most people in Europe understand what was happening to the Jews who were rounded up? But even so, in almost every corner of Europe, the local population was more than eager to round up and expel the Jews. |
Depended on the area, certainly in many parts of the Pale region, locals did actively participate in the expulsion of Jews- less so in more cosmopolitan societies, like in France, Italy, the Netherlands and so forth. To say they were more than eager thought is wrong, since if that were true, the prenazi regimes would have done it anyways, NO? That is the grand and total flaw in your arguement- if Europeans were so damned anti-semitic before the war, then the expulsion or extermination of the Jews would not have needed German conquest to be a precondition.
quote:
I think that this incessant, extreme, anti-Jew propaganda by the Iranians and others in the ME cannot but have a very corrosive effect on their people. I feel they would willing support mass slaughter of Jews and would be unwilling to tolerate the continued existence of the State of Israel. |
I am sure there is much latent anti-semitism in all the ME, but regimes make policy, not latent feelings among the masses. Arab and Iranian leaders may be able to count on using anti-semitism as an excuse to act in the future, but just as the majority of Europeans did not participate in the Holocaust, the majority of people in the ME would not participate in a fictional second go.
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:16
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quote:
Originally posted by GePap
Depended on the area, certainly in many parts of the Pale region, locals did actively participate in the expulsion of Jews- less so in more cosmopolitan societies, like in France, Italy, the Netherlands and so forth. To say they were more than eager thought is wrong, since if that were true, the prenazi regimes would have done it anyways, NO? That is the grand and total flaw in your arguement- if Europeans were so damned anti-semitic before the war, then the expulsion or extermination of the Jews would not have needed German conquest to be a precondition.
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The Poles were not so much less antisemitic (socialists aside) as more humane, and I suppose one could say, more aristocratic, more honourable. Physical violence, at least with state authorization, was out of the question. Instead there were economic boycotts with the support of the govt, combined with exclusions from universities, certain professions (IIRC) etc - that had reduced Polish Jewry to extreme poverty (even by eastern European depression standards) in the late '30s. Thats why there was a massive outflow of Polish Jews - "The Jews without a future" throughout the '30s, even before Hitler conquered.
IIRC, it was similar in Rumania.
In Hungary it was more moderate. There were quotas on Jews in certain professions, but Jews could still make a living in private business. Something similar in the Baltics, IIRC, though it wasnt the same for all.
And throughout, propaganda, and in the case of Hungary, direct pressure, from Germany played a role.
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:16
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quote:
Originally posted by lord of the mark
The Poles were not so much less antisemitic (socialists aside) as more humane, and I suppose one could say, more aristocratic, more honourable. Physical violence, at least with state authorization, was out of the question. Instead there were economic boycotts with the support of the govt, combined with exclusions from universities, certain professions (IIRC) etc - that had reduced Polish Jewry to extreme poverty (even by eastern European depression standards) in the late '30s. Thats why there was a massive outflow of Polish Jews - "The Jews without a future" throughout the '30s, even before Hitler conquered.
IIRC, it was similar in Rumania.
In Hungary it was more moderate. There were quotas on Jews in certain professions, but Jews could still make a living in private business. Something similar in the Baltics, IIRC, though it wasnt the same for all.
And throughout, propaganda, and in the case of Hungary, direct pressure, from Germany played a role. |
None of these regimes, faincg inherent and old anti-semitism, turned to pogroms and murderousness.
And in states in the West Jews faced every day anti-semitism, but without much state sponsorship, again going against Ned's dystopian view of Europe.
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Sirotnikov
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<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Pax
Especially since, peaceful Isreal has carried out acts of war on Iranian soil. |
huh?
care to enrich my history knowledge?
quote:
The first thing Isreal could do to help Arabs/Muslims/Persian and etc from thinking that they eat baby Persian hearts is stop acts of aggression. |
Its one thing to think Israelis are agressive / warlike / what ever.
Its a whole other thing to think Israelis steal baby palestinian hearts.
The first thing Israel could do to stop this image, and to help the persian people, is probably to bomb the Iranian government into submission.
Last edited by Sirotnikov on 25-12-2004 at 00:54
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23-12-2004 23:17
everyone knows that the Jews are a Zionist conspiracy 
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