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Maniac
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Gent, Belgium
Jul 1999
time: 06:16
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The Council of War
To not litter the University Invasion thread with discussions on what to do after, I thought I'd start this think tank, with the most highly regarded members of the Junta, to ponder about our post-University military actions.
There are several courses we can follow. Unfortunately each of them has several disadvantages. So I was hoping we could discuss here what to do, and how to solve the problems surrounding our choice.
A first option, heavily supported by Googlie, is to go after Lal. This would give us vast tracks of fertile real estate. 
These following problems I can see:
First question is, is invading Lal really beneficial for us? He’s currently pacted with us, which means we get some commerce, and he should also be willing to trade technology to us. More concrete, he’ll research Synthetic Fossil Fuels MY 2159 IIRC.
And while conquering Lal’s bases should be a breeze, the question is whether we can keep them. While Zak’s bases are placed relatively concentrated and close to our homelands, Lal’s bases are spread out over a very large territory, and far away from us. In a possible future conflict against the Gaians or Angels, they would be very hard to all defend. And it would be even harder to protect them all sufficiently against probe infiltration. In short, I fear for an imperial overstretch.
A second option, heavily supported by Modo, is to go after Morgan as soon as possible. This would weaken our strongest rival for victory, making us undisputed top doggie.
Here the big problem seems to me a lack of troops. We have as deployable invasion force one cruiser transport, four rovers, one impact infantry, one synthmetal skirmisher and one elite probe team. While this is sufficient to roll over the Arcadian factions, I doubt it is sufficient to take on a human player.
In a few years we could of course start producing some extra cruiser transports and missile marines, but that means fewer investments in economic expansion.
As suggested before, we could of course limit our objectives to not conquering Morgania but merely obliterating all their coastal bases. While our current military is IMO also insufficient to have a large effect before Morgan builds sufficient defences, it is a good start for a harassing guerilla force.
But we can ask ourselves; do we want to obliterate bases? This will permanently damage our reputation, and give us trade sanctions forever, after a few obliterations. Currently we already get 19 energy out of commerce (6 from Morgan), a figure that will no doubt increase as time progresses. So we’d forfeit a good percentage of our income.
A third option is to rid the world of Yang, or at least take some of his bases nearest to us, for example those on our side of the Styx Straits.
While the real estate here is even better than Lals, the best of the Chiron in fact, the Hive is much heavier defended. Progress here would be very slow, and a war would drag on very long. Furthermore we can ask ourselves if we should disturb Yang, who is doing very good work for us: at vendetta with Gaia, and who knows soon Morgan too.
A fourth option for the record would be the Gaians or Angels. They would most likely be easier to conquer than Morgan, but they’re also located further away, so there’s again the danger of an imperial overstretch.
A fifth option is not to attack any faction, but use our already existing military in Arcadia to do some worm farming in those large fungal banks east of Arcadia University. This should also give us some decent cash, and some worms after we’ve founded a Manifold base.
So as you can see, whatever route we take, there are some problems on the road that we’d better discuss and try to solve before starting our next big adventure. 
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Googlie
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Commanding Officer, CRYPTEIA
Apr 1999
time: 21:16
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A good summary of the military options
Maybe it's also time to step back and look at the other victory options, as alternatives to military conquest.
After the current Uni conquest is complete, and our 2 new bases founded, by 2157 we'll have a population of 44, just shy of Morgan's 46 ( one base will have produced a new Colony Pod by then and will have shrunk to size 2, and the new colony won't yet be foiunded)
We'll have 5 Network Nodes in operation, and a size 7 base (MonStat, renamed Fort Superiority) with 2 mineral/energy boreholes being worked.
We'll prolly have - or at least be looking forward to - the CDF, and it's feasible that we could concentrate on infrastructure and contemplate a Transcendencs win.
If we are going to try for a Diplo win, then conquering, and getting a submissive, Lal, then gifting back all his bases is a must. As, prolly, will subjugating Yang. And if we haver a hope in hell of this, then we must deny Morgan the Cloning Vats. We, Zak, or Lal (if subjugated) must get this SP
I don't think that Economic Victory is a realistic option for us
So the real post-Uni choice seems to be whether we continue with the roll south to capture PK bases and force a Lal subjugation, then gift those bases back to him, or whether to consolidate what we've got and focus on our pop-boom strategy in both our Homeland and North Arcadia while we wait for Fusion Power and Shard needlejets, then embark on phase II of a Military victory strategy
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Snoddasmannen
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Ok I feel like ranting
This is an extremely interesting thread, and what we decide here will likely prove decisive for the outcome of the game. I really think we have so much power in our hands. Morgan is all set to bloat, and the Angels/Gaians I think are too weak to really do anything, but Sparta, we have lots of options, and currently at a very important crossroads.
I will say right away that I don't like the idea of going Builder, even if the purpose is to research better weaponry. I just don't think we have a chance to out-build the Morgans. They have strong Economy bonuses, they've been building infrastructure since day 1 and worst of all they're run by people who - as I understand it - are experts at doing exactly what they're currently doing with the Morgans. They also have the HGP, the PTS and the PEG.
Sparta has Morale bonuses, we have the CN, the MTC and hopefully soon the CDF. And we also have a large standing army currently wreaking havoc in Arcadia, and we even have a small navy, about to be reinforced.
In my opinion, the best way to win is to do a lot of what we are good at, and only do what we have to in the areas we are not as good at.
I don't think we need to bash Lal yet. He is a good ally, both for tech and energy trading. And Morgan is too strong to take on right away, we could dent him, but it wouldn't do us much good. So what do I suggest? I call for mobilization. Build armies in both Arcadia and Sparta, and when we have enough to fill four or five cruiser transports. Send them to Morgan in a pincer move from both east and west and force them to surrender. I don't think we have too much time to wait.
As for Cloning Vats, I agree, let's keep those from Morgan. We should talk to the Gaians/Angels about it.
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Googlie
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Commanding Officer, CRYPTEIA
Apr 1999
time: 21:16
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Well, I think we're reaching a sort of concensus that we leave Zak with his 2 tiny bases after we have captured Otk-Dis, bullied him into ceding control of Monitoring Station, and - after we get a probe team ready to garrison it - buy Climatic Research from him.
Our pact with Lal is providing valuable energy credits, so we leave him alone for the time being.
Yang is doing a good job of tying up the Gaians, so we also leave him alone until we get D:AP, Fusion, and better weapons.
The Angels aren't posing a threat to us (but they may become so once they get their NN's and Creches built)
Which leaves us with Morgan.
Should we strike before they get their defensive infrastructure in place (ie, clean plasma or silksteel armored units) or wait until we get better weapons and drives?
And, if soon, how big a force would we need? And what would be the immediate objectives?
I think we should attack on a pincer, from both his east and west coast, with specific short term objectives in mind. Impact Rovers, backed by Crypteia to defend agains probe counetr attacks
Here's my view of what our immediate targets should be:
- the 3 key Morgan bases -
The attack from East Arcadia, sourced out of Climatic Research, would be a couple of cruiser transports with 4 Elite Impact rovers in one and 4 Crypteia in the other:
- The Arcadian Task Force -
With a simultaneous attack on his eastern seaboard (from our Homeland, going west) launched from a new westcoast naval base , and also comprising a couple of cruiser transports filled with Impact Rovers and Crypteia
- The Homeland Task Force -
Of course, if by the time we're ready, we have missile weapons (or chaos), then we'd have our rovers upgraded to them. And if we have the luxury of time, a couple of extra transports with trance plasma defenders wouldn't be amiss either. But right now, with the forces at Morgan's command, this would do the trick.
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Snoddasmannen
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quote:
Originally posted by Googlie
LOL - and there I thought I was like Eisenhower planning D-Day. I hadn't realized that Snod had already touted that as a strategic option |
I was wondering why you didn't give me any credit 
We can call it the Snooglie Plan.
Brilliant maps btw They really brought the plan to life.
Well obviously I like the idea. Using the bizarre crawler-hurry feature that Maniac mentioned will give us the opportunity to insta-build an army while maintaining a high level of production. So that makes a rapid build-up/attack even more attractive. We don't really need any plasma units even, do the Morgans even have laser?
A concern of mine is that our Crypteia (infantry chassi right?) won't be able to keep up with the rovers, since we won't be able to get them elite will we? (they can't use monoliths) So how about a couple of Longstriders mixed in to keep up with the blitzing?
It's a shame we can't build amphibious units, a couple of elite marines would kick ass. Obviously the less impact rovers we have sitting right next to the Morgan coastal bases, the less we are exposed to the hostile Morgan soil.
quote:
Wait! We already have a force that can do the razing. The units currently in Arcadia. How much can Morgan do before those lads land? Dare I say: nothing?
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Yeah you're probably right, and I also considered this. The problem is that they will stop that assault eventually, and we won't get much or anything from it long term except weakening them. Remember there are other factions to consider, if we go on "scorched earth" raids against Morgan, the Gaians/Angels will gain in influence. So I think we should be patient and prepare for a sizable, yet relatively fast attack against Morgan, which will give us some return on our investment.
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Modo44
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in western Poland
Jul 2004
time: 06:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Snoddasmannen
Yeah you're probably right, and I also considered this. The problem is that they will stop that assault eventually, and we won't get much or anything from it long term except weakening them. Remember there are other factions to consider, if we go on "scorched earth" raids against Morgan, the Gaians/Angels will gain in influence. So I think we should be patient and prepare for a sizable, yet relatively fast attack against Morgan, which will give us some return on our investment. |
Actually, if it was just about weakening Morgan, I'd go for it. The units could go on a rampage, just destroying anything in their path, not even trying to keep bases.
But I see another problem with my idea. Once we start taking on human factions, who are obviously better at defending than the AI, we might face an alliance soon. That's why, as much as I'd like to send those units to do some damage, I'd rather not reveal our power just yet. They can pact all they want, but after Morgan is toasted. 
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Snoddasmannen
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quote:
Originally posted by Googlie
Which meams. essentially, that we build an assault force large enough to tale all Morgan bases in at least 2 turns
...
But strength in numbers is good - albeit delaying the invasion somewhat. |
Yes, I agree.
So what kind of timeframe are we talking about here? Arcadia has the troops to send over according to the 2+2-cruiser transport plan, all it needs are some Crypteias and another cruiser. Sparta needs to build 4 rovers, some Crypteia and two cruisers. Are we talking roughly 10-15 years to get these built?
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Maniac
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Gent, Belgium
Jul 1999
time: 06:16
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Gentlemen of the Junta,
Yesterday I've given some further thought to how an invasion of Morgania could be concretely planned.
I added up Sparta's and Morgans production of this year:
Sparta 75 (support-free) minerals & 9 credits
Morgan 79 minerals & 122 credits (and +1 SE Industry)
Roughly speaking I'd say their economy is double as big as ours.
I also added up what the suggested military taskforce would cost:
5 extra cruiser transports = 200 minerals
8 missile rovers = 400 minerals
8 synth skirmishers (Skanky's Sileni) = 160 minerals
8 longstriders = 240 minerals
+ some expansion of our fleet for escort duty: let's say 150 minerals for three missile cruisers
Total: 1150 minerals
Hello!?! 
Even if we could throw all our minerals into the military, that's over a decade worth of production. But we wouldn't be able to use all production for military purposes. We'll also need to continue build extra hoplites, rec commons, crypteia, etc... for the day-to-day running of our faction. So who knows we'd already be tending towards twenty years preparation time... Imagine how many defenders - and who knows offensive troops - Morgan could have built in that time? And we can hardly attack with less troops, if the goal is military conquest. Our troops could get bogged down or mindcontrolled soon after invading.
So I don't want to be a party pooper, and I certainly hope someone can prove me wrong, but considering our current economic base, I think we've gotten a bit overexcited. In my opinion conquering Morgania is too ambitious a goal for us at the moment.
Besides, I'm not sure if this has been explicitly decided: What is to be the goal of a Morganite conquest?
Is it to gain access to extra resources, expand our economy? In that case I can suggest multiple better investments to spend our minerals on.
Or is it to weaken our biggest opponent for victory in the longterm, without necessary having to take over Morganite lands? In that case the PTS raid is of course a brilliant initiative. However in that case I also don't necessarily see the need for a full-blown invasion.
We could make our goals more limited. Goals that require less minerals. Instead of assembling a full invasion force, we could assemble a smaller guerilla force. One that scourges the Morganite coasts and destroys all bases and terraformations in range. The goal would not be to take over control of Morgania, but simply to continually keep them weak. Once the guerilla force would be produced, our bases could switch to builder status, and expand our economy until we are big enough to actually conquer Morgania (and the other remaining factions).
Also regarding atrocities, my opinion regarding those is more or less, either you don't use them at all, or either you say "To hell with commerce and my reputation" and use them as much as possible to your advantage. So if we'll get sanctions anyway for obliterating Morgan Industries, I'd go full monty and start using nerve stapling (less costs to control our drones), nerve gas (50% stronger troops) and base obliterations (to weaken Morgan more, and faster) as much as we can.
I don't know though: could Zak renounce his submission if we'd use normal atrocities too much? Or is only planet busting a big no-no?
As for what a more limited guerilla force could be, I was thinking about eg one or two taskforces of a 1-2t-8 Coastal, a 6-1-8 missile cruiser, a cruiser transport filled with either a bunch of 6~-1-1 elite missile marines (if we would want to keep it purely coastal) or a combination of 1-2t-2 synthrovers, X missile rovers and probe teams (if we also want to venture inland). Such a taskforce would still cost lots of minerals, but a lot less than the cost of a full invasion force.
IIRC the idea of not conquering Morgania but instead weakening him was suggested long ago by Modo, before we got the idea to take over Morgania.
Anyway, as said before, I hope someone can prove that a full invasion of Morgania is possible within a decent timeframe. But if not, hopefully this idea has some merit.
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Snoddasmannen
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Very good investigation Maniac
I wasn't aware of the exact cost of building such an army, I was hoping it would take about a decade, but that seems unreasonable with these figures. We probably won't need to build all those new units, we have some old ones to play with, and our infrastructure and mineral output will increase over the years, but the cost is still prohibitive.
Maybe we should stop and think here. Is it possible for us to weaken the Morgans to such an extent that they won't be able to win, without us resorting a full-blown conquest? How would we actually win the game ourselves? If their economy is twice our size, could we mount raids to eliminate half of it, enabling us to compete? And wouldn't the other teams have a good chance to play catch-up?
Could we mount invasions of Lalaland and The Hive to win a diplomatic victory, while at the same time keeping the Morgans weak enough to not blow us away economically?
I have always advocated the PTS raid, it is a quick and dirty way to wound Morgan. But will taking out the PTS be damaging enough? Perhaps it is better to save our forces, set up a limited version of the Grand Army, the Not So Grand Army, with perhaps 2/3 of the troops. It could be deloyed in a decade or so, and with any luck the Morgans won't have realized the danger they are in and will not have built up a large defense. I'm not convinced this is the way to go, but it has always been an option to the PTS raid.
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Modo44
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in western Poland
Jul 2004
time: 06:16
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That's a bummer. If we can't capture territory from Morgan, we should try to cripple them as much as possible. This will probably mean recalling the currently planned raid in favor of one big hit. Yes, I mean razing as much as possible, and doing so in one big raid, so they can't prepare. Yes, I mean accepting the consequences - sanctions for the rest of the game. Basing on Snoddasmannen's idea, here's what I would do:
Before doing a raid, we should resume the Treaty for a short time. And demand the outstanding payments in cash, basing it on the obvious mistreatment we received from them ("per-turns payments being suspended on numerous occasions without a clear reason"). This would show us as willing to cooperate, while perhaps getting out some quick cash for upgrades/rushes. They might, or might not go for cash paymenst, but I think it's worth a try. At the same time, we can build a force strong enough to destroy the Morgan core once and for all.
We can delay the raid, and preapare 8-10 Cavalry units (Rovers) with 2-3 mobile defenders and transports. No Crypteia, no additional defenders for the transports. Then just let them go, starting with key Morgan bases, and working their way through others. Obliterating everyting. Keeping in teams to prevent mind control. Destroying expensive improvements when possible. If we shock them by razing key bases, they'll have a hard time reacting. We can decide if we want to suicide the force or not once we have seen what bad things Morgan can do to it. Obviously, the weaker Morgan reacts, the more we would be able to destroy.
We can consider sending a defensive force for base captures if/once Morgan is crippled enough to be easy prey. Trying to destroy coastal bases will not do long-term, because Morgan could turtle up. They would simply leave the coast - apparently they are good at ICS (placing cities extremely close), so we wouldn't hurt them nearly as much as by destroying their core.
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Googlie
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Commanding Officer, CRYPTEIA
Apr 1999
time: 21:16
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A good analysis, Maniac
But I think you're overestimating Morgan's strength after the PTS raid. He'll lose 1/3rd (at least) of those minerals 'cos he'll need to convert a worker to a doctor) and he won't be able to focus on defenses 'cos he''ll need to build drone control facilties - or if he does, it'll be at a much slowwer rate with a worker >>> Doctor in every base (a classic "Guns versus butter" dilemma)
But I'm happy with just the PTS raid - it deals such a crippling blow to Morgan's strategy. However I'd leave the rovers stacked after it and next turn try to take out the HGP as well (our infiltration will show if that's feasible or not) - if it can be done - even with suicide rovers, then I'd go for it. It'll tie Morgan up for twenty turns building drone control facilities, and he won't have those minerals to play with 'cos he hasn't got crawlers and workers will have to be changed to doctors to cope with the drones.
Then I like the idea of forcing him off the water - ruthlessly take out any coastal base they try to build, and bombard from offshore any facility that's in range (and later, with aircraft, bomb the crap out of crawlers/mines/boreholes, etc etc.) In short, Invasion on our terms, but failing invasion, keep them in teh stone age.
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Zeiter
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You think it'll cost that much, Maniac? But we can easily accomplish the same thing with impact troops instead of missle troops, don't you think? In fact, we probably won't need that many additional attacking troops in general, unless Morgan really builds up. Our main problem will be holding and securing the bases we've already captured, not conquering them. Also, we won't need to protect bases in the rear. Thus, I'd say we'd need 8 longstriders, 4 more impact rovers, 8 synthmetal skirmishers (not so much for base garrison duty as for protecting the advancing packs of impact rovers from counterattacks), 4 more cruisers, and maybe 2 cheap foils for escort. Thus:
4 extra cruiser transports = 160 minerals
4 impact rovers = 120 minerals
8 synth skirmishers (Skanky's Sileni) = 160 minerals
8 longstriders = 240 minerals
2 laser foils = 40 minerals
Total: 720 minerals
This would take roughly 10 turns to assemble (with a mineral output of 75 min/turn), and then a couple of turns to launch the invasion, so we'd be talking somewhere around 2168.
Also, we need not hold every single base. If a base is threatened with a counter-probe attack or military counterattack, we can obliterate that one and quickly move on, only holding the especially juicy and/or vital bases.
Also, as a sort of "Plan B," we could keep the raiding force in relatively close position, and if we see Morgan instituting any sort of massive armament building during our buildup, we can deliver a preliminary kamikaze/PTS and HGP sabotage strike.
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Snoddasmannen
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Zeiter, are you suggesting to forego the PTS raid in favour of a more substantial build-up? I hadn't thought of doing your Plan B, it sounds rather interesting. I'm a bit scared that the Morgans will suddenly catch a wiff of our plans and send defenders scurrying to the west coast. Our raid forces would find themselves outgunned and the chance to do a preemptive strike would be lost.
The advantage of an immediate PTS (maybe even HGP) raid is that it would be guaranteed to be a devastating blow.
My thinking is that we send our raid troops to Morgania, and see if we can still succeed in the raid, and if so do it. If not, send the boys home to Arcadia and wait for the build-up and invasion proper.
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Zeiter
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I guess what we need to consider is how easily we would be able to mop up the Morganites with our second invasion proper after the raid, and how much of a boon that would be for us.
With the PTS (and HGP, possibly) obliterated, the Morganites will be faced with massive drone problems, forcing them to:
1. Switch workers to doctors
2. Spend their time building drone facilities
3. Possibly starve some of their citizens in the process of switching workers to doctors (especially if we can manage to take out the HGP too.)
Thus, they will easily lose at least 5 turns of turn advantage, and they will still be in a much weakened state afterwards. I have no doubt that a second invasion proper would prevail.
Now, what would we gain from the second invasion? True, we wouldn't get the PTS or the HGP. However, we would obtain some nice cities (although they might resort to a scorched-earth policy, in which case we could only be sure of capturing any cities on the first turn of invasion), and some fertile real-estate. In short, we'd be the masters of the northern hemisphere.
I think we should also begin thinking about plans regarding an assault on Yangland. Once we have Morgan subjugated, and once we have missle weapons, I think we'll be more than ready. I suggest that our Yangland Army consist of 10 elite 6-1-1's, 10 crypteias, and 5 defensive skirmishers (whether they are synthmetal or plasma). In my mind, this is what would constitute a minimum invasion force for Yangland. The good thing, though, about the Yang invasion is that we could more easily re-supply it than a Morgan invasion, whether by land or sea. All in all, this invasion force would only cost 500 minerals! Not too big of a price to pay for securing big juicy bases and rich jungle territory, I should say.
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27-12-2004 22:10
Attachment: 
I'd rather have one huge raid/invasion for which the Morgans are not entirely prepared.
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