27-12-2004 23:41									#1
	Do you raze Wonders Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

NOTE: this is playing on a mod of my own, a modified version of the All Units mod from civfanatics on the Marla gig world Map.

I am playing as the Maya, and I had been in a race with the American for control of North America. I was able to secure all of Central America, the Carribean, and the Western US, with the Rockies, the Missouri and the lower Mississippi as the border. Well, playing on the Americas, we American civs fell behind the Eurasian civs in tech- I have been tyring to catch up, but unfortunately the Americans went ahead of me as well, after a short superiority of my own.

So, I decided to end my American problem with the most radical action, my first ever genocidal campaign. I got my GA and used it to build a massive army- the Americans, who lead the world scoreboard ignored their military might and then, had the gaul to use a right of passage to sneak attack me! Their pitiful sneak attack was turned back, and on the very first turn of war 5 American cities were burned to the ground.

My problem is this- the war is for all intents over- no way the Americans can recover from having now 11 cities burned down, including many of their largest. Now a massive army moves on their capital and other masisve armies on other cities- but I remember that the Americans have the temple of Artemis (now obselete) and perhaps other obselete wonders. Now, part of my genocidal rational was that they have more culture than me, and I don;t want to risk cultural flips while trying to secure cities.

So, should I simply sack all American cities and exterminate them, or should I secure the cities with wonders? Are obselete wonders worth it, or can they safetly be destroyed?

	28-12-2004 00:50									#2
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If the wonders are obsolete then they are of no benefit to you while any city with ancient wonders is likely to require massive amounts of units to keep. I see no advantage to keeping the city, my advice is...

BURN BABY BURN

	28-12-2004 02:22									#3
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burn cities with obsolete wonders.

	28-12-2004 04:54									#4
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Burn obselete wonders.

If, on the other hand, they have Leo's, Sistine's, Bach's, etc get some culture of your own and fight!

	28-12-2004 05:11									#5
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yes, yes I do.

	28-12-2004 05:51									#6
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almost never- unless I have no hope of keeping the city.

	28-12-2004 06:38									#7
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Burn'em, burn'em all.

	28-12-2004 06:42									#8
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Oh hell yes. Don't just burn the obsolete ones, either. There is just something very invigorating and liberating about that moment of "To hell with it" as you decide to raze the Pyramids or Sistine's (never Sun Tzu's or Leo's, though, of course ). Seriously, sometimes it just feels great to go against the obvious game benefits and raze a still-functional wonder. Makes me feel like Chingis Khan.

	28-12-2004 13:09									#9
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I don't oftenly burn cities at all.

	28-12-2004 18:49									#10
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Depends on my mood I guess, and local geography

If you can wipe them out completely in relatively short time, you should try to keep as many as possible. Use large amounts of obsolete troops to pacify them, and keep troops around to recapture them should they flip. (AKA 'I don't care if they flip'-tactic)

If they got unaccessible cities, or can put up with enough resistance to give you a prolonged war, just burn them all


One positive side-effect of keeping them is that the other AIs won't swamp newly freed territory with their own settlers (but then again, this may be exactly what you wish )

	28-12-2004 20:29									#11
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Or just starve them....

	28-12-2004 20:32									#12
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Well, so update- the war was a nasty Phyrric victory.

I took the Americans down from about 20 cities to 3. There were a few issues, but in the end, it was always just a matter of getting my army there and crushing him.

The problem is, the war was costly (had to put my luxury slider up to 50% due to a seevre lack of luxuries- as you may know, in marla's map luxuries are spread out to force trading, and I had little to trade) and I have fallen deep in a tech hole- I am about 7 techs behind the tech leaders in the industrial age- first time that i can remember that someone else begun and got Hoover dam!

Now I am involved in a campaign against the Inca to secure rubber, which i will win, but just means my tech gap shall remain huge.

	29-12-2004 02:41									#13
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MWAHHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

Take that pyramid down - Stargate style!!!!

	29-12-2004 02:45									#14
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I'll raze/abandon cities only if I can't keep them. This happens very seldom, but when it does, not even active wonders survive.

	29-12-2004 11:42									#15
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A note to burning cities. Instead of razing them, take the city, sell the improvements, then right click on it and abandon it. To my knowledge, it isn't considered an atrocity to abandon a city, only to raze it, and therefore preserves your undocumented integrity with the other civs...

	29-12-2004 13:35									#16
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That is what I always do if I am not going to keep a captured city. I also very often need it as a temporary stepping stone to the next enemy city. i.e. to stop the enemies border expanding into the empty space left by the destroyed city.
However I did once read somewhere that abondoning a recently captured city still counts as an atrocity.
My usual strategy however is to keep captured cities. Usually only destroy them when chance of flipping back is clearly very strong.

	29-12-2004 19:32									#17
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You guys miss the emotional gratification of wiping from the map a hated competitor and salting the earth.



Damn that santa hat, it sort of ruins that smiley.

	30-12-2004 00:08									#18
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Yes, razing a city can be very satisfying.

I once played a game through where I was behind in tech, power, and just about anything else. The Chinese were the leaders. They sneak attacked me. So, I piled up a small army, marched them right to his capital and burned it to the ground. Oh man that felt good.

	30-12-2004 00:14									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Commy A note to burning cities. Instead of razing them, take the city, sell the improvements, then right click on it and abandon it. To my knowledge, it isn't considered an atrocity to abandon a city, only to raze it, and therefore preserves your undocumented integrity with the other civs...

It is an atrocity, but you do get cash this way.

	30-12-2004 02:08									#20
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But no free workers....

Do I remember correctly, but does having... foreign workers upset the leader, whose nationality those workers are? And if so, does the same thing apply to arty and cruise missiles, too?

And where might I find Marla's map?

	30-12-2004 02:12									#21
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 burn cities with obsolete wonders.

Yep. Unless, of course, you can and will capture/raze every last American city. Once they're gone there is no threat of culture flip.

I don't often raze. Part of that is playing on a relatively easy level - I rarely find that I really need to worry about culture flips and/or losing the city to AI counterattack. Part of it is that I tend to fight in "all or nothing" style once I've reached the middle ages or beyond. Aside from early ancient age harrassment (settler bopping, early rushes), I rarely nibble at an AI civ. I either fend them off & make peace, or I take them down.

-Arrian

	30-12-2004 03:05									#22
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That is usually the same for me, but this time, the Americans had way more culture than I- and a very large empire- speed was key, not attack, secure, move on.

	30-12-2004 05:32									#23
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Tattila, I did a search on 'Marla Map' and it took me to several possible sources. Civ 3 official website have several maps including some of Marla's works along with the Earth one.

http://www.civ3.com/maps.cfm?startimg=52&page=18

Also you can get it from a thread under her name (Marla Singer) at Civ Fanatic website.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showt...=&threadid=9829

	30-12-2004 21:01									#24
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http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=36212

It's also hosted here.

	30-12-2004 21:27									#25
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don't you get a score bonus for every wonder you have at the end of the game?

that's why I rarely raze them. Only if I can't hold the city.

Yes going for higher scores is one of my objectives of the game.

	30-12-2004 22:11									#26
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Why did you let the Americans live?

	30-12-2004 22:29									#27
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I got into a war with the Portuguese to avoid anyone getting their hands on the empty new American east coast, and they brought the Inca in against me, which was fine, as I need a source of Rubber.

But I had to have my luxury slider at 50% to prevent endless riots in my cities thanks to the WW with the Americans. They had 3 cities deep in tundar left-the few turns needed to finally wipe them out was not worth those few turns of having unhappiness such my economy down the drain.

	03-01-2005 09:04									#28
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If you have enough units, going into anarchy and then selecting the same government again can fix WW if you're worried about cities starving...

	03-01-2005 14:00									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident don't you get a score bonus for every wonder you have at the end of the game? (,,,)

I think a winning score is simply based on the running score (which is a combination of territory and population score) with a bonus for how quickly you won and a few points for any future techs. I may be wrong but do not think you get anything extra for wonders.
Population score of course is based on happy citizens and specialists; with only half as much for a specialist as a happy citizen. (Not sure if contents count).

	03-01-2005 15:01									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Commy If you have enough units, going into anarchy and then selecting the same government again can fix WW if you're worried about cities starving...

Actually, the starving usually takes place during the Anarchy, so why would one want that? And going from Democracy back to Democracy won't reset War Weariness. You need to end wars for this to happen.