28-12-2004 02:40									#31
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Giancarlo, your example shows that brainwashing in the 'free' world has reached the levels unthinkable even in the Soviet Union.

	28-12-2004 02:40									#32
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond Giancarlo, your example shows that brainwashing in the 'free' world has reached the levels unthinkable even in the Soviet Union.

I was just joking about the first reason. But the other two are very valid. How does Putin handle the free press? He just sends soldiers in to take over!

	28-12-2004 02:43									#33
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Are you serious in your last statement?

	28-12-2004 02:44									#34
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond Are serious in your last statement?

We very clearly see how Putin likes the free press. I forget the name of the station he took over.

	28-12-2004 02:46									#35
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Brainwashed

	28-12-2004 02:46									#36
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Printed press is still free. TV has just been curbed back to American standards.

	28-12-2004 02:47									#37
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Exactly

	28-12-2004 02:51									#38
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printed press is still free? Is that like a .. beacon of the freedom then? If so, how about getting to barrigades?

	28-12-2004 02:52									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion Partition Ukraine!

It will collapse anyway. Modern Ukraine is the artifitial creation. She never had such borders that she has now. It is too damn polarized, in fact there live two different peoples, instead of one, united Ukranian people. It's doomed to collapse if your western, democratic candidate Yushenko won't become a western, democratic dictator to prevent the split of the country by force.

	28-12-2004 02:53									#40
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I heard Yanukovych will oppose the results to the courts. He claims there are systematic frauds.

I think it's a good idea. If anything, the courts showed their independence as they ordered these new elections. I think THEY are the best ones to decide whether the elections were rigged, or not.

I utterly distrust the OESC observers (not them individually, but the political interpretation said by the OESC), and the EU's or US's stances are worth no more than Russia's. All of these stances can go to the trash where they belong.

For the matter, I think both candidates are petty suckers which are bad for Ukraine. But the pro-Yushchenko propaganda sickened me into leaning toward Yanukovych... who IMHO wants to be a Putin-like but is way too incompetent for that effect.

	28-12-2004 02:53									#41
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Ok, so which is better? Stalinland Kruschevburg Brezhneville Chernenko Park Andropov Town

Pina Coladaburg
Kruschevia
Brezhneville /2
Chernenko Park
Stalinland
Andropov Town :steve earle:

	28-12-2004 02:56									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka printed press is still free? Is that like a .. beacon of the freedom then? If so, how about getting to barrigades?

I bet, Russian media in some cases has way more freedom than the western media, due to lack of laws and regulations. Whole those stories about Russian media being not free are no more than BS and part of the anti-Russian and anti-Putin campaign carried out by the West through its propaganda machines.

	28-12-2004 02:56									#43
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond There is a related Russian saying: However many times you repeat the word 'sugar', you won't get sweet taste in the mouth.

Most Americans like Russians - even during the cold war, I think most of us liked Russians as people. I dont think the Euros feel worse towards you.

Plenty of Americans, BTW opposed bringing in the Visograd states to NATO, DESPITE a sense of historic obligation to them.

I see no real reason to bring Ukraine into NATO. The more you guys go on the way you do about them,however, the more it seems like NOT bringing them into NATO is leaving them out in the cold.

You will notice that there are not NATO bases in the Baltics. The discussion of NATO bases in eastern europe has focused on small bases, that would be no threat to Russia, or to its sphere of influence.

Your paranoia MAY be sufficient to be self-fullfilling, but I doubt it. We have too many interests in common. And, sorry to say this, you arent that threatening to us anymore. We simply dont think about you as much as you do about us.

	28-12-2004 02:56									#44
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Right

	28-12-2004 02:58									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Serb It will collapse anyway. Modern Ukraine is the artifitial creation. She never had such borders that she has now. It is too damn polarized, in fact there live two different peoples, instead of one, united Ukranian people. It's doomed to collapse if your western, democratic candidate Yushenko won't become a western, democratic dictator to prevent the split of the country by force.

1. the partitioning of even artificial creations can be a horrible process. People are intermarried, there are mixed areas, esp capitals, etc. If there is any possibility of keeping Ukraine together, that should be attempted.

2. IIUC Yuschenko did better this time around in the east, esp in Kharkiv.

	28-12-2004 02:59									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I heard Yanukovych will oppose the results to the courts. He claims there are systematic frauds. I think it's a good idea. If anything, the courts showed their independence as they ordered these new elections. I think THEY are the best ones to decide whether the elections were rigged, or not. I utterly distrust the OESC observers (not them individually, but the political interpretation said by the OESC), and the EU's or US's stances are worth no more than Russia's. All of these stances can go to the trash where they belong. For the matter, I think both candidates are petty suckers which are bad for Ukraine.

Like it can change anything now. The courts made illegal decision in favor of Yushenko, under pressure of US and EU, so I don't see how it can be independent.

quote: But the pro-Yushchenko propaganda sickened me into leaning toward Yanukovych... who IMHO wants to be a Putin-like but is way too incompetent for that effect.

I have to agree.

	28-12-2004 02:59									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor If anything, the courts showed their independence as they ordered these new elections.

Do you call this independence, when the decision was literally extorted by the mob in the streets, which even penetrated into the court building??

quote: I utterly distrust the OESC observers (not them individually, but the political interpretation said by the OESC), and the EU's or US's stances are worth no more than Russia's. All of these stances can go to the trash where they belong.

At last, a word of reason from a westerner.

quote: For the matter, I think both candidates are petty suckers which are bad for Ukraine. But the pro-Yushchenko propaganda sickened me into leaning toward Yanukovych... who IMHO wants to be a Putin-like but is way too incompetent for that effect.

Again Ukraine needs candidates that would unify the country, not so dividing as both Yushcheno and Yanukovich.

	28-12-2004 03:00									#48
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They're saying Belgium is an artificial creation too. For almost 175 years already.

	28-12-2004 03:01									#49
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Yes well I agree with you guys that it's not the benefit of Ukraine to be divided into two. Should be unified, which ever it chooses to do.

	28-12-2004 03:02									#50
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Belgium
Brussels

Its only shortcoming is that it is the capital of the Evil Union.

	28-12-2004 03:04									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I heard Yanukovych will oppose the results to the courts. He claims there are systematic frauds. I think it's a good idea. If anything, the courts showed their independence as they ordered these new elections. I think THEY are the best ones to decide whether the elections were rigged, or not. I utterly distrust the OESC observers (not them individually, but the political interpretation said by the OESC), and the EU's or US's stances are worth no more than Russia's. All of these stances can go to the trash where they belong..

Spiff, how have the stances of the US and EU gone beyond whats justified by the OSCE observers, who you say you do trust as individuals? Serb and Vag are at least consistent - they say the OSCE observers are liars. If they OSCE observers are NOT liars, how could the US and EU have taken different stances from what they did?

	28-12-2004 03:04									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Colon They're saying Belgium is an artificial creation too. For almost 175 years already.

And it has stayed true for all that time

I think the main reason why Belgium didn't separate is because of the wide autonomy of both parts, and because you don't have a "winner-takes-all" president.

Ukraine is fortunately taking the past of a more "consensual" democracy, rather than a "majoritarian" one, but this change has been prompted by the election crisis: there has been a reform giving more power to the Parliament and less power to the President.
But even then, Ukraine has a long way to go to be a viable and united political entity, when there are mediocre leaders such as the ones who candidated this year. Belgium or Canada could be good inspiration for Ukraine's institutional evolutions.

	28-12-2004 03:05									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I heard Yanukovych will oppose the results to the courts. He claims there are systematic frauds. I think it's a good idea. If anything, the courts showed their independence as they ordered these new elections. I think THEY are the best ones to decide whether the elections were rigged, or not. I utterly distrust the OESC observers (not them individually, but the political interpretation said by the OESC), and the EU's or US's stances are worth no more than Russia's. All of these stances can go to the trash where they belong..

Spiff, how have the stances of the US and EU gone beyond whats justified by the OSCE observers, who you say you do trust as individuals? Serb and Vag are at least consistent - they say the OSCE observers are liars. If they OSCE observers are NOT liars, how could the US and EU have taken different stances from what they did?

I understand you dont like the cold war sounding rhetoric from some of the superficial voices in the West - though I dont think you get that from ANYONE whos delved seriously into the matter.

	28-12-2004 03:06									#54
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark 1. the partitioning of even artificial creations can be a horrible process. People are intermarried, there are mixed areas, esp capitals, etc. If there is any possibility of keeping Ukraine together, that should be attempted.

The possibilty of keeping Ukraine together can be even worse. Such possibility might mean thousands of dead people.

quote: 2. IIUC Yuschenko did better this time around in the east, esp in Kharkiv.

Not at all. Yanukovich clearly won at southern and eastern Ukraine. About 15 million Ukranians (who produce 80% of Ukrainan GDP, I'll never tire to remaind this over and over again) are very unhappy about their candidate being robbed with victory.

	28-12-2004 03:09									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Serb Not at all. Yanukovich clearly won at southern and eastern Ukraine. About 15 million Ukranians (who produce 80% of Ukrainan GDP, I'll never tire to remaind this over and over again) are very unhappy about their candidate being robbed with victory.

Source? That implies a GDP per capita of over 4 times as high in eastern Ukraine as in western.

	28-12-2004 03:09									#56
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Seriously, the division (except for Dniepropetrowsk I guess) has some reflection in history; the part that voted for Juszczenko is part that used to belong to Poland once (until second half of XVII century), and the part that voted for Janukowicz are the grounds that were conquered by Russia from Muslims.

	28-12-2004 03:10									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I think the main reason why Belgium didn't separate is because of the wide autonomy of both parts, and because you don't have a "winner-takes-all" president.

This wide regional autonomy is something very recent and Belgium has been a centralised, unitary state during most of its history. (without or with few guarantees to the rights of "cultural minorities")

[edit] You're right we're (not yet?) risking tussles like the one in Ukrain at the moment though.

	28-12-2004 03:11									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor And it has stayed true for all that time I think the main reason why Belgium didn't separate is because of the wide autonomy of both parts, and because you don't have a "winner-takes-all" president.

This is the problem for Ukraine- she isn't a federation and there is no autonomy for regions. So either she will become an authonomy or she will collapse sooner or later (or become a dictatorship as third possibility).

	28-12-2004 03:17									#59
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Most Americans like Russians - even during the cold war, I think most of us liked Russians as people. I dont think the Euros feel worse towards you.

What makes you think that? My, entirely unscientific, impression is that russophobia is still pretty common in Europe.

ObAnecdotal: As a kid, my mother was told the Russians would take her if she did not behave.

	28-12-2004 03:20									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist What makes you think that? My, entirely unscientific, impression is that russophobia is still pretty common in Europe. ObAnecdotal: As a kid, my mother was told the Russians would take her if she did not behave.

well then, I think we may be different on that, then.