28-12-2004 06:45									#121
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Serb I believe they SHOULD BE. If Ukraine want to be "independent" (like we opress them somehow ), fine, but why the hell WE should pay for this?

Then stop paying and stop acting like a fool.

quote: Check figures of Ukranian import/export I've posted on the previous page. When Yushenko was pm he f*cked up Ukranian economy. What makes you think he will do better as president? Wanna bet? I bet that after a couple of years of his presidency Ukraine will even worse sh!thole than it is now.

Really, i don't care much about how bad a moscow puppet has done previously.

Yeah, a pm controlled by a moscow puppet president really has the freedom to do what he wants. My guess is that in a few years, russians will look at Ukraine with envy and ask why they are not doing it equally well.

	28-12-2004 06:48									#122
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist Yeah, it's really like the Ukrainians are gonna outcompete us on a serious scale.

I'm guessing that on a hourly bases once taxes, health costs, and various other costs are computed your average German or Swede probably costs around $50 per hour. If I was a manufacturer I'd be running to the east so fast your head would spin.

	28-12-2004 06:48									#123
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by BlackCat Then stop paying and stop acting like a fool. Really, i don't care much about how bad a moscow puppet has done previously. Yeah, a pm controlled by a moscow puppet president really has the freedom to do what he wants. My guess is that in a few years, russians will look at Ukraine with envy and ask why they are not doing it equally well.

I'm tired of this sh!t.

	28-12-2004 06:48									#124
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Serb Holy crap. The west is hopeless. How can anyone be so brainwashed? Pravda is the childish paper in comparison with your freepresspropagandabrainwashingmachines. ****

Are you stating that kgb or rather their succesors are incompetent ?

	28-12-2004 06:51									#125
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Serb Sorry, but this is complete BS. 1)Putin doesn't attack companies.

Putin is perfectly willing to look the other way to tax evasion and various misdealings by virtually every company in Russia, but, some how those people who oppose Putin's politics seem to always get into massive legal trouble which often ends in the theft of all of their property.

But if it makes you feel better you are right about one thing. Russia would be better off without the corruption but Putin won't stop the corruption because he's neck deep in it and he uses it to keep himself in power.

	28-12-2004 06:53									#126
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Serb Good.

Wasn't You supposed to log out, hm?

	28-12-2004 06:56									#127
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Azazel Yuschenko Yanukovich Freedom Russian Imperialism American Imperialism Ted Striker

Azazel, I assume you speak for Israel in that you no longer want to be an American Imperial Outpost.

I shall herewith withdraw my personal support of Israel.

	28-12-2004 06:58									#128
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Serb And one more thing. UKraine is not part of evil Russian Empire. THEY GOT THEIR INDEPENDENCE 13 YEARS AGO. They had 13 years of independence to became like Poland or Czechs, why they didn't? And why the hell they should become now?

The big reason is that for all of those 13 years the country has been run by decidedly pro-Moscow politicians who were more interested in maintaining their control then in really modernizing the national economy. Does anyone really think Kuchima helped the Ukrainian economy?

	28-12-2004 07:00									#129
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I'm guessing that on a hourly bases once taxes, health costs, and various other costs are computed your average German or Swede probably costs areoun $50 per hour. If I was a manufacturer I'd be running to the east so fast your head would spin.

They are. Several danish companies has moved first to the baltic area and are now moving to Ukraine and even furhter east.

This could sound like a bad thing, but the fact is that in the first year after such a movement, 90 % of the workers who lost a job has got a new. Actually, i think that this is a quite efficient way of boosting less developed economies and i am certain that Ukraine will feel the same effect.

	28-12-2004 07:03									#130
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Whoha Oh yea, Yushenko's wife was apparently a Reagan administration aide of some sorts.

You have got to be kidding!!!!!

	28-12-2004 07:05									#131
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Serb I'm tired of this sh!t.

I really understand you, it must be a hell to imagine new fantasies every time you are shot down.

	28-12-2004 07:06									#132
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin The big reason is that for all of those 13 years the country has been run by decidedly pro-Moscow politicians who were more interested in maintaining their control then in really modernizing the national economy. Does anyone really think Kuchima helped the Ukrainian economy?

Serb's apparently not around, so I'll make a point for him:
Kuczma was elected more or less democratically.

	28-12-2004 07:07									#133
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by BlackCat I am a little confused about this point. If i'm not wrong, then Ukraine has been run by Moscow puppets for more than 10 years, so how can the admin be against moscow - such people would have been weded out long ago.

yusch = challenger
Yano = current guy

and IIRC she was born in the Ukraine, fled to the US, worked in some minor position in the administration, and is now back there.

	28-12-2004 07:07									#134
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by BlackCat Yeah, a pm controlled by a moscow puppet president really has the freedom to do what he wants. My guess is that in a few years, russians will look at Ukraine with envy and ask why they are not doing it equally well.

I strongly disagree. Yushchenko is a corrupt hack who has already been Prime Minister. His coming to power comes along a grave political crisis, and a terrible division of the country.
It is very unlikely that such a bad president, in such a bad situation, manage to improve things any significantly. Actually, I expect many of the Orange supporters to be strongly disappointed as corruption and poverty will continue unabated.

	28-12-2004 07:10									#135
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Heresson Serb's apparently not around, so I'll make a point for him: Kuczma was elected more or less democratically.

Besides, Kuchma was certainly not a Russian stooge. He was pro-Russian, but he wove strong ties with the EU as well. A real Russian stooge would have gone the way of Belarus. Kuchma was much more independant than we like to depict ihm, and he was also much more pragmatic.

	28-12-2004 07:12									#136
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Yushchenko may go down in history as one of the four pillars of Eastern European democracy. He would join with Pope John Paul II, Lech Walesa, and Boris Yeltsin as courageous people who stood up to up for democracy at a time when events could have gone the other way.

The only people who could be sad about this turn of affairs are fans of the Russian or Soviet Empires.

	28-12-2004 07:15									#137
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Besides, Kuchma was certainly not a Russian stooge. He was pro-Russian, but he wove strong ties with the EU as well. A real Russian stooge would have gone the way of Belarus. Kuchma was much more independant than we like to depict ihm, and he was also much more pragmatic.

Also, He could've used force to crush the Orangeutans, and He did not. I think it's very nice of him.

	28-12-2004 07:23									#138
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I strongly disagree. Yushchenko is a corrupt hack who has already been Prime Minister. His coming to power comes along a grave political crisis, and a terrible division of the country. It is very unlikely that such a bad president, in such a bad situation, manage to improve things any significantly. Actually, I expect many of the Orange supporters to be strongly disappointed as corruption and poverty will continue unabated.

There was two choices - one that decided to fiddle with the election and one who hasn't been caught in it. Yushchenko may be a bad choice, but isn't that the case in every country that doesn't have a monarchy ?

Please tell me why a president elected through fraud is a better one than one who may be rotten, but still preferred by a majority ? (and please, don't start BS about bush).

	28-12-2004 07:25									#139
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: And vice versa. Reinforced Western prejudices reinforce Russia's political proclivities.

Russia has only itself to rely upon, to blame, and to worry about. Western impact on Russian internal politics is quite minimal.

quote: Partly, this is an inevitable side effect of overcoming the anarchy and disarray of Yeltsin years. Partly, this is an impression blown out of proportions by western media. In fact, what Putin is desperately trying to do is to create such a system of political parties and civic organizations that would make political pluralism work for the benefit of Russia, and not for its destruction as often happened in the past.

Colon will vouch for me when I say that I was willing to give Putin the benefit of the doubt on this. I agree that past wrongs have to be fixed, at least somewhat. Russia was robbed blind by her oligarchs. At a minimum, proper taxes have to be collected. In the absence of other totalitarian tendencies, I would support a rebalancing of some of the oligarchs' power to the people.

But add the reality together and you get a totalitarian stench that scares Westerners. Rather weak opposition parties being crushed. A strictly controlled TV press. Consolidation of power in the Czar's hands. A resurgent secret police. Rampant corruption in the top ranks of government. Talk of a "controlled Democracy" (that must be a Russian creation ). I wonder when the number of allowable presidential terms will be extended... At best, all of this stuff is a waste of valuable time for Russia. Russia gains nothing from these measures.

quote: On the contrary, the West's long-standing insatiable thirst for grasping as many countries as possible has not been helping Russia's democracy. Not at all.

Listen to yourself talk, Vagabond. Russia's lack of democracy has nothing at all to do with the West's long standing thirst.

quote: I would be surprised if it didn't happen. But please don't pretend that this is a result of Russia's recent behavior. It is a masterplan worked out loooong time ago. What happens now is just a convenient pretext for a decisive move.

Even if I were to accept your conspiracy theory, the way for Russia to "fight back" would be to become strong internally. If Russia were strong internally, then Putin wouldn't have to rig elections in the Ukraine. Indeed, as I pointed out above, most of what is happening under Putin will not make Russia stronger, but rather weaker. He should be raising wages, downsizing, and professionalizing the security services. Instead, he is monkeying around with centralization. I thought Putin was smarter than this. Collecting power is a fool's game.

	28-12-2004 07:33									#140
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by BlackCat There was two choices - one that decided to fiddle with the election and one who hasn't been caught in it. Yushchenko may be a bad choice, but isn't that the case in every country that doesn't have a monarchy ? Please tell me why a president elected through fraud is a better one than one who may be rotten, but still preferred by a majority ? (and please, don't start BS about bush).

The candidate who actually wins the popular vote deserves to be president indeed (although I continue to have my doubts on whether Yushchenko really had more legitimate votes than Yanukovych - remember both guys are corrupt liars).
However, the statement on which I disagreed was "russians will look at Ukraine with envy and ask why they are not doing it equally well". I do not expect Ukraine to fare any significantly better in a few years than today. Maybe if somebody new was in, somebody honest with a platform of widespread changes, that statement might have been true.

But Yushchenko won't solve corruption in Ukraine any more than Berlusconi did in Italia, and he isn't on the verge of making a revolution. The people of the so called "Orange Revolution" will soon understand that their dear leader brought very little change. And corruption and poverty will continue unabashed.

The only way for Yushchenko to significantly change the people's life is to try adhering to the EU, structurally change the Ukrainian society to that effect (like the Turks), and being poured billions over billions by the EU. I don't see that happening (at least, the billions part), because we have already more than enough billions to spend on the new members.

	28-12-2004 10:45									#141
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Why are russians so damn paranoid?

I think it's the guilt com,plex

	28-12-2004 11:05									#142
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

http://europa.eu.int/comm/trade/iss...ne/index_en.htm

quote: The enlarged EU has replaced Russia as Ukraine's foremost commercial partner (accounting for 35% of its external trade in 2003).

	28-12-2004 11:06									#143
	Got spare money?

These elections are completely fair cuz' our guy won.

	28-12-2004 12:00									#144
	Suffering from ads?

Give Crimea back to the Tatars!

	28-12-2004 12:40									#145
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Stefu For which we can thank Ted Striker

	28-12-2004 13:46									#146
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: quote: Originally posted by Serb Keep your BS for Yankees or Euros. I know what's going on there.

And I don't?

quote: If everything is so perfect there, then how the hell can you explain Russian exodus from Baltic states. Hundreds of thousands are expelled from there.

Link, bs-master.

quote: Russians that stayed are treated as crap- no citezenship, no basic human rights.

They can get the citizenship if they pass the required tests. How people manege to live in a foreign land for 50 years and not learn the local language is beyond me. Well, maybe not beyond - perhaps they think that this land being independent is an aberration that will be corrected in due course, so why bother learning.

quote: **** you too.

If all else fails, blind silly insults will save the day.

quote: Biatches, if you ask me. Allies means partners, it means both sides can benefit from cooperation. The west can offer security for you, what can you offer for the west except your body? You think NATO desperately needs your single motorized division to protect Berlin or London? They are ready to protect you, but they do nothing for free. So, what kind of "allies" you are talking about? 'Biatches' is the word.

Nobody asked us to protect London or Berlin; people in NATO seem to be realists, unlike some Siberian sysadmins. And it's not like we're exactly stretching NATO forces with their security commitments for the Baltics.

I could of course tell you stories how our special forces dished out pwnage on Taliban , but you'll go "Spetsnaz!!! " "Komsomol!!! " etc in no time

	28-12-2004 14:02									#147
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Serb Not at all. Yanukovich clearly won at southern and eastern Ukraine. About 15 million Ukranians (who produce 80% of Ukrainan GDP, I'll never tire to remaind this over and over again) are very unhappy about their candidate being robbed with victory.

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Source? That implies a GDP per capita of over 4 times as high in eastern Ukraine as in western.

quote: Originally posted by Serb You ask me to waste hell knows how many hours to make a research for you? Who will pay for that study? Donetsk region alone is reponsible for 25% of Ukranian GDP. You have to believe me.

Why should we believe you, this distribution of GDP makes very little sense indeed - it would make the Ukraine one of the most unequal countries on the planet.

Even if you have seen data supporting what you claim (and I very much doubt it) you have to know how GDP per region is calculated in order to be able to make any conclusions about it:

GDP (which is value added across a region or area) is mostly generated within companies - the easiest way to assign the GDP produced within a company is to use it's address.
This means that if a company has its head office in one region but it's workers use a factory in another then all the value added produced by those workers is added to the region with the companies head office.
Whilst this is easy for statisticians to calculate (as is better than no regional accounts at all) it is well recognized that it can produce inaccurate results, for example in my native Britian inner London has a GDP per head (calculated using workplace based GDP) nearly two and a half times higher than outer London, but the disposable incomes of the households living in inner London is only 3% higher than those in outer London - the reason is that many people from outer London commute into inner London where their GDP is recored, but they live (and receive and spend their income) in outer London.

You have to understand how statistics are calculated if you are going to be able to draw meaningful conclusions from them (which is one reason why I keep taking issue with a lot of Giancarlo's statements).

	28-12-2004 14:25									#148
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond Printed press is still free. TV has just been curbed back to American standards.

Wow, if that's the best insult you can come up with Russia must be feeble indeed.

	28-12-2004 14:35									#149
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond If your government thought the same...

Official U.S. policy opposes the expansion of NATO to Ukraine. We only went along grudgingly to expand to the Baltic as LotM describes.

	28-12-2004 16:09									#150
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Colon will vouch for me when I say that I was willing to give Putin the benefit of the doubt on this.

*vouches*