30-12-2004 20:33									#31
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Right

What ever. No matter if I brought you a videotape of him doing nothing and making all the wrong choices, you would defend him. So it's no use debating about it. 46% says he should die in hell. That's enough support for that one. End of debate for me.

	30-12-2004 20:40									#32
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Its easy for ignorant people to sit at home watching telly and condemn him because his public appearance hasent ben like Martin Sheen on the West Wing.

	30-12-2004 20:47									#33
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It is easy to defend anyone by saying you weren't there, you can't know, you wouldn't do any better, you're just a besserwisser. IT's easy to claim everyone ignorant, because they don't agree with you. IT's even easier to remember the arguments and forget some of them. I explained several things he did bad in. You remember only the appearance. That's why this debate is not going any further. You're just hanging on with your left wing hero, who can never do wrong. And you claim a landslide support for your claims in internet poll. where the question isn't about tuomioja per se, however tuomioja has gotten the nay sayers pretty solid and a lot of crap, and it's not even solely his actions that were in question of the poll. Believe in what you want, sense or even statistics or hard evidence would not stop you. And that's why I won't bother anymore with this one.

	30-12-2004 20:48									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie Good idea. Having one single thread to cover all topics related to a disaster of biblical dimensions is not enough. Burma says the number of dead is 90 people. Anyone believe that? Look at their coast on a map!

this tragedy still has not killed as many people as the typhoon in 1991.

biblical proportions my ass.

	30-12-2004 20:48									#35
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Pekka... chill or be chilled. Please read my earlier post!

	30-12-2004 20:49									#36
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I showed some rambling and aggression in my first posts. You're late Ming, just like Tuomioja .

	30-12-2004 20:51									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka I showed some rambling and aggression in my first posts. You're late Ming, just like Tuomioja .

Yeah.. I know... But my major concern now is what happens AFTER MY WARNING... got it

	30-12-2004 20:54									#38
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Well don't worry on my part. I'm pretty much done with it and the passion is pretty much gone. I admit that I hate this Tuomioja with passion. Not only because of his political stance, I mean I'm not a fan of SDP, but I'm not a big hater of SDP. Just Tuomioja in particular. I think his past actions as.. his young career and the whole contiunance to this day is just one big disgrace in my eyes. I'm sure he's doing his best though. But I feel his best isn't good enough. I know I'm biased, but I also feel I'm right on this call. Be it right or wrong however is not that important in the big scale of this disaster of international scale, though I feel it is important enough to ramble about on small local scale. Well I did it and I'm done now. Please proceed.

	30-12-2004 21:03									#39
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To be fair to all parties involved, you can't just throw money, supplies, military personnel or whatever at a disaster like this. There's a massive amount of co-ordination required, and it takes a little time to do something effectively. Which isn't to say do nothing at first, but you need to be realistic.

To all the people *****ing, take a step back and seriously think about this. What exactly would you do if you were in charge? Rush over a ton of planes? Where would they land? Who would off load them and get the supplies to where they are needed? Should every country just start randomly sending stuff wherever and hope that all areas are covered? Should we just bomb the affected areas with dollar bills or euro notes? Seriously, what?

	30-12-2004 21:05									#40
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I think the most useful tool would be helicopters. Lots of them. For evacuation and for bringing in supplies to remote areas.

-Arrian

	30-12-2004 21:10									#41
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Does anyone know how much money the U.S. supplied for the Typhoon in 1991 that killed more people? This is what I want to know.

Last year the U.S. contributed 40% to natural disasters throughout the world.

Sure we are the richest economy, but in no way is our economy equivalent to 40% of the world's economy. Not with the EU and Asia powerhouses.

I'm tired of all this america bashing. Sure it's trendy, I do it myself sometimes.

Yes I take it personally sometimes when people bash america. Because essentually they are saying americans are bad people. So they are saying I'm a bad person.

	30-12-2004 21:28									#42
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I would gather myself around with disaster experts ASAP, get the worst case scenario and the counter action to that, and assign special group to start preparing all the way from moderate estimate to worst case scenario preparations. So that we are 100% ready for moderate estimate, but with an option to go to the worst case with extra effort. Call up everyone who needs to be on this. Then coordinate between these groups. Establish a fast link to the location(s), and start immidiately to negotiate the possible support and help troopers that are going to be sent with the local authorities. When the permission comes, they need to be on their way right away. It's ready when the permission comes, not 'OK let's call everyone here!'. They'er ready.

The local links will provide us first hand information regarding to our own citizens. They will serve as information purposes only. Another link will be set up from a group of people whose mission is to map the situation regarding our own citizens. They can also map the situation of Swedes if it is possible for information purposes to help Swedes. Try to establish cooperation ASAP. Contact all travel agencies at once and be informed. Ask their current plan of action and revise them and keep the link up for information purposes. Groups of people, in neighbouring countries that we can get in contact with are to be sent there ASAP. They need to be ready to move when the permission arrives. They will help on the mapping plus what ever extra tasks there might be concering our citizens. From people who are alreay in the country and we can get a hold of, we will asign a group who will go through all the hospitals, again mapping. They will gather information of the names of all people that are our citizens and offer them possibility to confirmation via satellite phone or just verbal confirmation to the person who is there. Categorize their need of aid, also taking account the possibility of the conditions worsening their situation. Do they need something urgently, eye glasses, heart medicine pills, what they need? That info is sent up to the travel agency link who will start immidiately scavening the absolute necessaries for them.

Also the hospital group will gather the name of the people who are with with injured one but missing. This list is to be sent back to my group all the time when updates come. We will then update the list with every info source compared to make the most accurate list. We also will make the family linking intelligent in here, so they won't have to waste their time doing that important task in there with minimal man power. We will link the families in data and send this info back down there so they can inform people, but not actually do the linking, so information p urposes and to let know. Contact all local airliners for possible emergency flights. Make sure their protocols of emergency suits the needs. Have it all ready when the permission to do that comes so the actual time of rescuing then is the matter of how long does it take to fly there.

Follow all sources of international information as well and pass the information on to other countries. Set up isolated group of people who will figure out ways to help the disaster situation and locals in separate. Inform the people, press conferece. Don't tell anything that is not confirmed, anything that is not confirmed is 'we don't know, but we're finding out'.

Set up crisis service in here for people. Call the hospitals and prepare them for incoming patients. Using priorities.
Immidiately, with or without permission, send medicine, water, blankets and clothes in. If it doesn't get there, too bad, but it needs to be sent right away anyway.

Send FRF (rescue team, specialized in these) right away.

Map the biggest problem areas of possible occuring situations we haven't thought, outside box thinkers get on it and come up with scenarios where our rescue attempts can't get in there. Permission problems etc, and have them work around them so we have all the scenarios ready and we know what to do if such should occur.

Inform and prepare the neighbouiring countries people who we have there to be ready if they start coming in there from planes, if they're taking different individual routes. Information desks with possible nurse or soemthing, water, clothes. We need to catch them all. if they come by plane, we catch them at the airport. If not enough people in local airports, then the ones who are in 'likely to get on this airport for connection flight' will catch them.

Negotiate possible hospital bed spots in the closest European countries that are not most affected by this directly. If it's a risk to fly 12 hours, maybe we can do it to country more close. Have our people in there to take care of it if such patients should arrive. People in local airports cooridnate with us so we know how many of our citizens is on what plane, so we have info on it. Set up a desk there, and gather everyone through that desk even if they are independents trying to get the hell otu no matter what. Let's try to know what route they're taking so we can help them in their way, or at least KNOW about it. Let's assume no one speaks any foreign language. They need help outside the disaster area too, on their way here through remote points.

This in the first 24 hours AT LEAST.

	30-12-2004 21:29									#43
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Maybe this disaster will renew interest in the possible collapse of the Cumbre Vieja volcano in the Canary Islands.

-Arrian

	30-12-2004 21:40									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Maybe this disaster will renew interest in the possible collapse of the Cumbre Vieja volcano in the Canary Islands. -Arrian

unlikely to cause massive tsunamis

most experts are saying its highly unlikely the collapse will happen all at once, but rather, be a series of small collapses which would not cause tsunamis.

	30-12-2004 21:43									#45
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Really? I links I found were kinda old, and referred to the initial (2001) report, which dealt with the worst-case scenario. Has that been refined?

-Arrian

	30-12-2004 21:46									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Really? I links I found were kinda old, and referred to the initial (2001) report, which dealt with the worst-case scenario. Has that been refined? -Arrian

it still is a worst case scenario. It could happen, but very unlikely.

what I do hope, is it will renew interest in a worldwide tsnunami system. Including one to proetect the U.S. east coast.

	30-12-2004 22:03									#47
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Swedish Governent has initially decided to give 500 Mkr ($75 M) in foreign aid, to be shared between the IRC, Unicef and other UN institutions and some Swedish civil defense organisations. Quite much per capita, but only a piss in the Nile in practice. Let's hope the International mutual efforts will add up to be enough to stop people from dieing in deceases, dehydration and starvation in the next weeks to come.

	31-12-2004 00:06									#48
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Wouldn't social security money have been better spent here?

OMFFG Social Security is pwnd! Clearly it is evil!

	31-12-2004 00:20									#49
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Let me make a few comments:

Online polls aren't accurate indicators of anything. They are not well sampled.

Secondly, Ollie made a comment in the other thread about the US Naval contribution being a "piss in the nile". It is a hell of lot larger then anything else any other nation is doing.

That's all.

	31-12-2004 00:29									#50
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US and UK have turned down a request from the Swedish Government to assist in providing air transport capacity. According to PM Göran Persson, US will not even evacuating it's own citizens (which might be because they have no clue where they are, to be fair).

Germany has given a positive response to the request. Germany and Sweden will also co-operate in the forensic identification work. This is natural, as most of the missing citizens from both countries were staying in the Khao Lak region, and are now lined up side by side in make-shift morgues. But Germany that is missing 1000 people will send 28 experts, while Sweden (missing 2-4 times more), is only sending 8.

	31-12-2004 00:31									#51
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France apparently increased its donation in response to US claims that France was stingy, so that briefly France had the highest donation total. Shortly thereafter the higher UK pledge came out. There will of course be new pressure on the US to increase its aid.

Sounds like an old fashioned United Jewish Appeal fundraisers. (Mr. Levine - i pledge a thousand! Mr. Cohen - no way that lousy Levine is gonna look better - and richer - than me - I pledge TWO thousand)


AP:

'PARIS - One-upping the United States, France nearly doubled its aid pledge for tsunami victims to $57 million Thursday and briefly claimed the role as leading donor nation, following barbs from Washington about French generosity.

But Britain quickly topped France by more than tripling its donation to $95 million and Sweden promised $75.5 million. Spain's Cabinet, meanwhile, approved a $68 million package, although about a fifth was in loans rather than outright grants.

Since Sunday's huge earthquake off Indonesia and ensuing giant waves around the Indian Ocean, the United States has announced an initial $35 million aid package. Secretary of State Colin Powell (news - web sites) said Thursday that was "just a beginning."

Prime Minister Jean-Pierre Raffarin's boast that France vaulted to "the head of all the contributors" appeared to be a response to comments from Andrew Natsios, chief of the U.S. Agency for International Development, which distributes American government aid.

In a Fox News interview this week, Natsios said France tends not to be a world leader in foreign aid and often packages its help as loans, which he suggested are inappropriate in emergencies.

"The aid program in France is not that big," he said. "They do not tend to be dominant figures in the aid. The British are, the European Union (news - web sites) is, the Japanese are, we are, the Canadians are."

At France's Foreign Ministry, spokesman Herve Ladsous shot back that French aid for the tsunami victims "is clearly donations and not loans."


Ladsous also said France gives more development aid than the United States and all other members of the Group of Eight industrial nations when measured as a proportion of a country's economic output.


"The figures speak for themselves," he said.

Last edited by lord of the mark on 31-12-2004 at 00:36

	31-12-2004 00:32									#52
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Apparently US, Australia, Japan and India are coordinating efforts - is that just for the India-Sri Lanka area?

	31-12-2004 00:33									#53
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And WTF is happening in Burma?

	31-12-2004 00:33									#54
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Well since the US has the biggest navy and the most amount of money, they will eventually come out on top.

	31-12-2004 00:34									#55
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark And WTF is happening in Burma?

The government there is far too secretive... maybe it would take a natural disaster to get those military leaders out of power.

	31-12-2004 00:38									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo --- Secondly, Ollie made a comment in the other thread about the US Naval contribution being a "piss in the nile". It is a hell of lot larger then anything else any other nation is doing. That's all.

Any country's contribution is a piss in the Nile. There are not enough global resources available to assist in the urgent rescue need spread out over 2 large continents and 1000's of remote islands.

Saying "US Navy saved the day" is simply arrogant. They might help some people, which is greatly appreciated, but anyone claiming their country is doing enough is lying.

	31-12-2004 00:43									#57
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark And WTF is happening in Burma?

Look at the map. Think about their political system. Go figure.

	31-12-2004 00:47									#58
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I think criticizing home governments is a little too quick on the trigger. It's not the governments' faults that the tsunami happened and vacationers are pretty much on their own in a foreign country that is known by them to have inferior infrastructure. Besides, this is around the holidays and the fact is that most government workers are on vacations, as these unfortunate beachgoers were. Lastly, I doubt Finland has large consulates in these places, for instance.

	31-12-2004 00:49									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie Any country's contribution is a piss in the Nile. There are not enough global resources available to assist in the urgent rescue need spread out over 2 large continents and 1000's of remote islands. Saying "US Navy saved the day" is simply arrogant. They might help some people, which is greatly appreciated, but anyone claiming their country is doing enough is lying.

You might as well do something rather then nothing. And what the US is doing is quite good and needed. We must help out the big population centers immediately. And we need the militaries of the nations affected totally mobilized to assist in the relief. Many of these nations will have to depend on themselves more because this is their territory. There is only so much the world can do.

Well somebody else said that... not me. And a country can be doing enough in its capacity. Some countries cannot send huge carrier fleets to provide assistance. Stop being so critical.

	31-12-2004 00:49									#60
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I don't think Burma has been affected significantly- bangladesh was hit slightly as well.

Its nice to see states trying to top each other- the sort of mindless pissing match that leads somewhere.