31-12-2004 00:52									#61
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Its nice to see states trying to top each other- the sort of mindless pissing match that leads somewhere.

Lets just hope it doesn't end up in the pockets of some corrupt government or UN official. The best way to contribute is in active manner.. not just throw money at it.

	31-12-2004 00:56									#62
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quote: Originally posted by GePap I don't think Burma has been affected significantly- bangladesh was hit slightly as well. Its nice to see states trying to top each other- the sort of mindless pissing match that leads somewhere.

given that Aceh has apparently lost almost ALL its infrastructure, this could go on for quite some time.

Flabbergasting, the scale of this.

	31-12-2004 01:28									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo Stop being so critical.

I'm mostly critical to those who lean back in their armchairs and say "enough is being done". That is simply arrogant. While we can all agree that every effort is highly appreciated, there is not enough capacity to do enough.

Why do you expect me to ignore things like this?

quote: biblical proportions my ass.

You are right, as the world population was much smaller back then, the biblical disasters were not even close to this in absolute numbers.

quote: 9/11 dwarfs this

I think this needs no further comment

quote: US Navy saved the day

Locally

	31-12-2004 01:40									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie I'm mostly critical to those who lean back in their armchairs and say "enough is being done". That is simply arrogant. While we can all agree that every effort is highly appreciated, there is not enough capacity to do enough. Why do you expect me to ignore things like this?

I'm putting you on my ignore list because quite frankly I had enough of your hissy attitude and rudeness. I have had it! We know there isn't enough we can do to save everyone, but we might as well ****ing try. If you don't like it, then that is your own damn problem.

	31-12-2004 01:57									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie Any country's contribution is a piss in the Nile. There are not enough global resources available to assist in the urgent rescue need spread out over 2 large continents and 1000's of remote islands. Saying "US Navy saved the day" is simply arrogant. They might help some people, which is greatly appreciated, but anyone claiming their country is doing enough is lying.

Those ships we are sending can generate 1.26 million gallons of fresh water every day(14 warships can do 90,000 gallons per day).

	31-12-2004 01:59									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Jaguar Wouldn't social security money have been better spent here? OMFFG Social Security is pwnd! Clearly it is evil!

It is 3.3 billion dollars per day.

	31-12-2004 02:04									#67
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This has to be satire...

quote: Bush 'Undermining UN with Aid Coalition' By Jamie Lyons, PA Political Correspondent United States President George Bush was tonight accused of trying to undermine the United Nations by setting up a rival coalition to coordinate relief following the Asian tsunami disaster. The president has announced that the US, Japan, India and Australia would coordinate the world’s response. But former International Development Secretary Clare Short said that role should be left to the UN. “I think this initiative from America to set up four countries claiming to coordinate sounds like yet another attempt to undermine the UN when it is the best system we have got and the one that needs building up,” she said. “Only really the UN can do that job,” she told BBC Radio Four’s PM programme. “It is the only body that has the moral authority. But it can only do it well if it is backed up by the authority of the great powers.” Ms Short said the coalition countries did not have good records on responding to international disasters. She said the US was “very bad at coordinating with anyone” and India had its own problems to deal with. “I don’t know what that is about but it sounds very much, I am afraid, like the US trying to have a separate operation and not work with the rest of the world through the UN system,” she added.

http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=3944374

	31-12-2004 02:06									#68
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We are, the UN is being retarded, everyone else has people on the ground helping, but they announced that they would have a meeting to decide how to spend the money next week.

	31-12-2004 02:15									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Whoha Those ships we are sending can generate 1.26 million gallons of fresh water every day(14 warships can do 90,000 gallons per day).

Very good.

The estimated number of people in desparate need of fresh water is 5 million. So the US is providing an average of a little more than 1 litre per person and day. An average person needs 2.5 liters a day just for drinking in temperate climate, and much more in a hot climate, perhaps 5 litres. (Someone might help me get these figures more accurate). The US contribution is significant, approximately 20% of the basic need, and if you can add helicopter transport capability to distribute the water over the huge disaster area, so much better. If the rest of the world adds up to this and everything is co-ordinated, the aftermath might go quite well. Let's hope!

	31-12-2004 02:27									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo I'm putting you on my ignore list because quite frankly I had enough of your hissy attitude and rudeness. I have had it! We know there isn't enough we can do to save everyone, but we might as well ****ing try. If you don't like it, then that is your own damn problem.

Rudeness? Please settle down. While you have every reason to be upset, with relatives in the area and all, you are not reading my posts in enough detail, or you are simply doing the wrong interpretations. I think you and I agree on most of what we post on this topic. You are just taking the few details of disagreement as personal insults, which was never the intention, and I think most other people reading could agree with me on that.

	31-12-2004 02:58									#71
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dan s, don't take anything claire short says seriously, she'll bad mouth the US to anyone who'll listen since 'leaving' the government.

	31-12-2004 03:03									#72
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Its nice to see states trying to top each other- the sort of mindless pissing match that leads somewhere.

As for the UN vs. the US/coalition... ack, I just don't give a shite. Whatever gets the aid where it needs to be the fastest. I really wouldn't be surprised if the UN is the slower of the available options. The UN, by its nature, is not an organization designed for speed. But I could be wrong.

-Arrian

	31-12-2004 03:45									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian As for the UN vs. the US/coalition... ack, I just don't give a shite. Whatever gets the aid where it needs to be the fastest. I really wouldn't be surprised if the UN is the slower of the available options. The UN, by its nature, is not an organization designed for speed. But I could be wrong. -Arrian

I also heard the UN is being very slow on this. While the UN effort on the Tsunami is being led by a Swede, the Swedish Government itself is much faster than the UN efforts (and Sweden did not react until day 3).

But that does not mean the UN efforts will be unnecessary. There are millions of people who have lost literally everything. They have nothing but shorts, sandals and two empty hands, some even less. The initial response will focus on keeping them alive, the long-term response will focus on getting them back on their feet, so they can take care of themselves again.

	31-12-2004 04:17									#74
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The UN is always very slow and ****s thing up beyond belief. Just keep them out of this or there will be a million dead because they fail to react fast enough.

The US must do its part, and setting up an aid alliance would be necessary since the UN is totally incompetent. And quite frankly, the aid coalition seems to be the best thing going with the regional superpower of South East Asia, India.. two economic super powers, US and Japan, and as well as Australia.

I wouldn't trust the UN with any money or anything because they would definitely screw it up, or steal it. After the $22 billion dollar incident involving the UN and the oil for food scandal I wouldn't trust them with a wooden nickel.

	31-12-2004 04:21									#75
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Death toll tops 13000. not 90.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/asiapcf/12/26/asia.quake/


Spec.

	31-12-2004 04:27									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Spec Death toll tops 13000. not 90. http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/asiapcf/12/26/asia.quake/ Spec.

Your article is four days out of date.

And it is 125,000.

http://reuters.myway.com/article/20...S-QUAKE-DC.html

	31-12-2004 04:33									#77
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I agree that certain parts of UN either are fck'ed up in politics, others seems deeply involved in regular swindle, but i think that the catastrophe aid sections usually works (maybe not fast, but they are reliable).

But i must admit I felt rather sick reading this :

quote: “Only really the UN can do that job,” she told BBC Radio Four’s PM programme. “It is the only body that has the moral authority. But it can only do it well if it is backed up by the authority of the great powers.”

Since when has UN achieved moral superiority ? I know that it isn't what she says, but is it possible to interpret it in other ways ?

quote: She said the US was “very bad at coordinating with anyone” and India had its own problems to deal with.

I read this as "not good coordinating with UN", and that is sometimes good. Currently Iraq.

	31-12-2004 04:39									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo Your article is four days out of date.

If you check a new thread by Spec, then you know why he isn't updated - he has done grim things to his collection

Edit : should have put this in from the beginning :

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...threadid=127519

	31-12-2004 11:55									#79
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Canada has upped its pleague to $40M + has agreed to match dollars donated by Canadians to aid agencies.

For the benefit of any Canadians that reley on OT for all their news :

Canadian Red Cross/ Earthquake relief : 1-800-416-1111

World Vision Canada : 1-866-595-5550

UNICEF/Tsunami victims : 1-800-567-4483

If you can afford the internet and Civ games, you can afford to give a donation. UNICEF got $50 from me yesterday.

	31-12-2004 12:01									#80
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UNICEF btw is on the ground in all the effected countries iirc except Myanmar and Somalia. Give them the money, they can get the job done locally.

	01-01-2005 01:01									#81
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$350 million

is that enough for you all?

or is the U.S. still being stingy?

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20041231/D87AQ4FO0.html

	01-01-2005 01:20									#82
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Nope. Denmark are contributing 300 Mill and we are only 5 mill people. Oups, it's danish crowns, which is approx 41 M$ .

It doesn't even help that the US figure will be revised when need occurs - you can add just as many zeros to the figure and still there will be crazyheads that will claim that it's not enough and that Bush/US is to blame for the broken glasses at moms birthday.

	01-01-2005 01:34									#83
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quote: $350 million is that enough for you all?

See... the comments WORKED!

	01-01-2005 01:39									#84
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No, Imran.. it had nothing to do with the comments.. the US carrier group was assessing the damage and it was soon known more had to be pledged. The UN can kiss my rear end because they don't influence anything in the US.

	01-01-2005 02:47									#85
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Is there not going to be any coordianation at all? I saw on CNN where Thailand was actually concerned that aid was coming too swiftly for it to handle. Someone mentioned at good idea that some of the things they really need are helicopters and engineers to get in there and start fixing runways for planes to land on. Anyone sending in combat engineers and such to get emergency infrastructure in the areas where everything has been washed away. All the money in the world isnt going to do much good while no one can actually put supplies on the ground.

	01-01-2005 02:56									#86
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350

USA

	01-01-2005 03:09									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber Is there not going to be any coordianation at all? I saw on CNN where Thailand was actually concerned that aid was coming too swiftly for it to handle. Someone mentioned at good idea that some of the things they really need are helicopters and engineers to get in there and start fixing runways for planes to land on. Anyone sending in combat engineers and such to get emergency infrastructure in the areas where everything has been washed away. All the money in the world isnt going to do much good while no one can actually put supplies on the ground.

I don't think Thailand need much outside help, because it's a quite rich country in comparison and foreign tourist made up most of the victims.

The countries in most urgent need are Sri Lanka and Indonesia. And some remote islands we don't yet even know what happened to.

USA has turned down a request from the Swedish Government to assist with airlift capability. I hope that's because those airplanes where on their way to help poorer countries than Sweden. (I thought the Swedish request was selfish and greedy. We are a rich country and have at least 8 Hercules planes ourselves, which should be enough to transport the zink coffins for our dead. And the planes we don't have ourselves, we can afford to hire.)

	01-01-2005 03:25									#88
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quote: See... the comments WORKED!

Uggghhh!

	01-01-2005 03:28									#89
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quote: USA has turned down a request from the Swedish Government to assist with airlift capability. I hope that's because those airplanes where on their way to help poorer countries than Sweden.

I don't think we have airlift capacity to the tune that would be required. Flights for our soldiers to the mideast are purchased from commercial sources, for instance. So Sweden's krones are no worse than American dollars in this regard.

In any event, I agree that Swedes should be given no particular preference by the US for flights out (but preference by the Swedish government, of course) relative to other relief needs. It would probably be cheaper to feed the Swedes in SE Asia than to send them to Sweden, for instance.

	01-01-2005 03:33									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber Is there not going to be any coordianation at all? I saw on CNN where Thailand was actually concerned that aid was coming too swiftly for it to handle. Someone mentioned at good idea that some of the things they really need are helicopters and engineers to get in there and start fixing runways for planes to land on. Anyone sending in combat engineers and such to get emergency infrastructure in the areas where everything has been washed away. All the money in the world isnt going to do much good while no one can actually put supplies on the ground.

I think that they are trying to coordinate as hard as they can, but the task is immense. More than four countries are involved (four major and a couple minor), thousands and thousands of square kilometres are involved and infrastructure is in several areas nonexistent.

Helicopters are good in such a situation, but they have one big flaw. If i'm not wrong, they need 4-5 (man)hours maintenace for each hour they are in the air, so you can't just say "lets send a couple of hundreds helicopters", they need massive backup.

The same goes for "combat engineers", they need supplies, equipment etc, so you can't just send thousands of those to the area in short notice. Secondly, soldiers can give political headeggs (sounds as simple ) - just take the Israeli group that was supposed to go to Sri lanka, theyt weren't allowed because they was military (if i'm not wrong, the real reason was that some muslim groups didn't like israelis in Sri lanka )

Another thing is the timeframe. It's six days since it happend, it took a couple of days for everybody to realize the size of the catastrophe, and the place is quite far away in terms of travel.

You are right about the money. At the moment money isn't the issue, although some people thinks that if you just spend a lot of money, then all problems are solved.