01-01-2005 03:39									#91
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There is a protest storm against the Swedish Government for their slow reaction. The foreign minister Laila Freiwalds is particularly impopular. She waited 31 hours to go to work after she first heard of the disaster.

The tabloid Expressen is suggesting that Lottie Knutsson (Information Director of the Charter Travelling Agency Fritidsresor) should replace her. Lottie Knutsson has shown great competence, leadership, carisma, and most of all compassion during these days of national trauma. She has been on TV interviews from 6 in the morning to 23 in the evening every day this week. And all the time, she looked like she had slept enough, washed her hair and put on fresh make-up.

Lottie Knutsson asked the government for help already on day one. It took the governent 3 days to respond. When the government-arranged evacuation aircraft were hired, the first evacuation planes arranged by Lottie Knutsson's company had already delivered their first passengers to Sweden and was turning back to pick up more people. On tuesday, foreign minister Laila Freiwalds met her in a TV debate and arrogantly told her to "watch her mouth", digging her own political grave.

I very much doubt that Lottie would fit as foreign minister though. Ministers are choosen for their loyalty to the Prime Minister, not for their competence and capability. And I doubt that Lottie shares the political views of the Social-Democrat government. And from the leadership she has proven in the worst national trauma since the Spanish flue 1918, any private company would love to get her into the board of directors.

She's 40, but when she's on TV, she looks like 30. A real babe. This picture was the only one I found, and she looks a little more tired than she normally does.

Attachment: lottie k.jpg
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	01-01-2005 03:45									#92
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As stated earlier, I think the home governments are getting a bum rap on all of this. Swedes vacationing in Thailand are not the government's responsibility. Further, Sweden has few assets on the ground in Thailand to do what it wants -- everybody is at the mercy of Thailand's infrastructure. Lastly, it happened on Christmas, for chrissakes. Was anybody at work in Sweden on Christmas?

	01-01-2005 04:32									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber Is there not going to be any coordianation at all? I saw on CNN where Thailand was actually concerned that aid was coming too swiftly for it to handle. Someone mentioned at good idea that some of the things they really need are helicopters and engineers to get in there and start fixing runways for planes to land on. Anyone sending in combat engineers and such to get emergency infrastructure in the areas where everything has been washed away. All the money in the world isnt going to do much good while no one can actually put supplies on the ground.

the navy should send in the seabees.

	01-01-2005 04:37									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident the navy should send in the seabees.

No offense, but even if they were activated from day one, there would probably go another week before they could do anything.

	01-01-2005 04:42									#95
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quote: Originally posted by BlackCat No offense, but even if they were activated from day one, there would probably go another week before they could do anything.

maybe. But they were orginally used for wartime construction. I can't say what their capabilities are now.

	01-01-2005 04:54									#96
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I guess that they are capable of building roads, airstrips and some kind of harbour, wich would be good. The problem are time. It takes time to call the nessecary people and to deploy them. They can't go by air - nowhere to land and i guess that the heavy equipment doesn't fit well i areoplanes, so thay have to take the waterway. My guess are that the local military are quite capable to handle those tasks, if not by hardware, then by manpower.

There are no easy solution for this disaster. The damn problem in the actual disaster is that it's so fcking widespread and in areas that is difficult to reach when infrastructure dissapears.

	01-01-2005 04:55									#97
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No offense to anybody who says swedes vacationing in Thailand are not the government's responsibility but they are... the state departments or foreign ministries of these nations are established so they can protect their citizens overseas. It is their responsibility. The Swedish government should take all the flak they can get for being slow. These are there citizens and thus their responsibility.

	01-01-2005 05:03									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo No offense to anybody who says swedes vacationing in Thailand are not the government's responsibility but they are... the state departments or foreign ministries of these nations are established so they can protect their citizens overseas. It is their responsibility. The Swedish government should take all the flak they can get for being slow. These are there citizens and thus their responsibility.

Agree !!!

Another thing is that while Hercules may be a fine areoplane to transport healthy people, then it's not very good at transporting injured for 14 hours. It's damn noisy and has no adequate sanitary installations.

	01-01-2005 05:35									#99
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quote: Originally posted by DanS As stated earlier, I think the home governments are getting a bum rap on all of this. Swedes vacationing in Thailand are not the government's responsibility. Further, Sweden has few assets on the ground in Thailand to do what it wants -- everybody is at the mercy of Thailand's infrastructure. Lastly, it happened on Christmas, for chrissakes. Was anybody at work in Sweden on Christmas?

So if a national trauma 30 times bigger than 9/11 happened in USA, you would support the President if he said:

"- Hey, I'm on Holiday, leave me alone!"

	01-01-2005 05:36									#100
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quote: Originally posted by BlackCat Agree !!! Another thing is that while Hercules may be a fine areoplane to transport healthy people, then it's not very good at transporting injured for 14 hours. It's damn noisy and has no adequate sanitary installations.

We're not using them to transport wounded. They bring down rescue teams and bring home body bags.

	01-01-2005 05:48									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie We're not using them to transport wounded. They bring down rescue teams and bring home body bags.

Bringing the dead home are a right thing to do, but i don't see that as a top priority. In my belief, it's much more important to get both healthy and those injuried that are capable of taking the trip, back home. Primarily to relief the situation for both the Thai hospitals and the coordination effort. That may safe lives where the homebringing of the dead don't.

	01-01-2005 06:20									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie So if a national trauma 30 times bigger than 9/11 happened in USA, you would support the President if he said: "- Hey, I'm on Holiday, leave me alone!"

Actually, what he's saying is if a national trauma occurred during Christmas, on the other side of the planet, to another country (even though some of my citizens were caught up in it too), it is unreasonable to condemn people for not jumping to attention immediately.

	01-01-2005 06:32									#103
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Actually, what he's saying is if a national trauma occurred during Christmas, on the other side of the planet, to another country (even though some of my citizens were caught up in it too), it is unreasonable to condemn people for not jumping to attention immediately.

One of the persons who had early knowledge of the dimension of the disaster (Lottie Knutsson), brought it to the government's attention on day one. They ignored her, and later attacked her on live TV. They deserve no support.

	01-01-2005 10:36									#104
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The government deserves no support for attacking her on live TV, but to put it bluntly, it's her employer's and her industry's responsibility to respond to the tragedy of Swedes in Thailand more than the government's responsibility.

If you vacation in a country with poor infrastructure, then by and large you take your chances and must live or die with the consequences. It's a harsh world we live in, but these vacationers took the risk willingly -- they must have had a realistic idea of the state of Thai infrastructure. Your own government just can't make things right all the time on the other side of the globe. It's not equipped to do it. Neither is ours. The writ of the nanny state does not extend nearly that far.

Last edited by DanS on 01-01-2005 at 10:47

	01-01-2005 15:28									#105
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But your own government is responsible for you if you get killed or injured, or stranded... in helping find you and get you back to the country. This isn't a nanny state we are talking about.

	01-01-2005 15:32									#106
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You think this is a question of infrastructure? What infrastructure can withstand something like the Amazonas river washing over it? What hospital system could handle that number of injured?

Edit: Giancarlo beat me to it.

	01-01-2005 23:39									#107
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http://www.cnn.com/2004/WEATHER/12/...g.ap/index.html

Thought maybe I would put it in this thread instead of the others. I don't see why anyone would come too hard down on NOAA after the fact when it wasn't their responsiblity to watch the Indian Ocean. they should develop better protocals to pass what info they do get though.

quote: NOAA's lack of staff, funding hobbled alerts WASHINGTON (AP) -- The U.S. weather agency didn't have the phone numbers nor staff to alert all Indian Ocean coastal countries when it saw the first signs that tsunamis could be heading their way, its top official said Thursday. He cautioned that the Caribbean and Atlantic also lack an early warning system. In the face of stern questioning by some in Congress over whether enough was done, the head of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration said his agency did all it was responsible for doing in warning 26 countries in the Pacific. "We cannot watch tsunamis in the Indian Ocean," said Conrad C. Lautenbacher, the Commerce Department's undersecretary for oceans and atmosphere and a retired Navy vice admiral, noting that no warning system exists for all 11 countries where the death toll has now topped 117,000. "Folks out there tried to contact people that they thought would be interested. ... They did what they thought at the time were the most prudent things to do," he said. "If we can improve it, believe me, we will improve it." In an interview with The Associated Press, Lautenbacher said he had ordered an internal review of its response to the quake and tsunamis. He said he also has asked NOAA staff to look at creating a "rapid reaction" emergency team and a more global warning system. Lautenbacher said the chances of a major earthquake in the Atlantic Ocean "are small, but they're not zero." "There is the potential of tsunami damage" in the Caribbean, he said, "and we believe that (warning) coverage should be extended to those areas as well." In the past 150 years, the Caribbean has had more than 50 tsunamis and the Atlantic more than 30, about half off the U.S. and Canadian coasts but none since 1964, NOAA figures show. Some scientists had urged both the Clinton and Bush administrations to create a tsunami warning system in the Atlantic and the Caribbean, but they say nothing much happened. "One option we explored as recently as a few months ago was to ask for money to have the seismic network at the university here become a 24-hour operation. ... But again there is no money," University of Puerto Rico oceanographer Aurelio Mercado-Irizarry said Thursday from Mayaguez. "Based on the magnitude of what happened in the Indian Ocean, I think something must be done, but at what level and what expense is the question," Mercado-Irizarry told the AP. A huge earthquake off Lisbon, Portugal's coast in 1755 generated tsunamis that crossed the Atlantic and wreaked havoc in the Caribbean and the West Coast of Africa, he said. Lautenbacher might be called to testify about the U.S. response to the tsunamis -- and what can be done to beef up warnings for the Caribbean and Atlantic regions -- before the Senate Commerce Committee's oceans, fisheries and Coast Guard subcommittee. Fifteen minutes after Sunday's quake near Sumatra, NOAA fired off a bulletin from Hawaii to 26 Pacific nations that now make up the International Coordination Group for the Tsunami Warning System, alerting them of the quake but saying they faced no threat of a tsunami. Fifty minutes later, the U.S. agency upgraded the severity of the quake and again said there was no tsunami threat in the Pacific, but identified the possibility of a tsunami near the quake's epicenter in the Indian Ocean. After nearly another half hour, NOAA contacted emergency officials in Australia as a backstop, knowing they would quickly contact their counterparts in Indonesia. It wasn't until 21/2 hours after the quake that NOAA officials learned from Internet news reports that a destructive tsunami had hit Sri Lanka. "The fact that the potential danger rose to the level of prompting a swift warning to two nations, while others could be faced with a potentially devastating impact, raises serious questions," the Senate oceans subcommittee chair, Sen. Olympia Snowe, of Maine, said in a letter to Lautenbacher. Lautenbacher said there was only so much NOAA can do. "The system is set up for the Pacific, and it is resourced and it is staffed to operate for the Pacific. It is not resourced or staffed to do the world," he said. Among the 11 nations reporting deaths, only Indonesia received any warning from NOAA, and then only indirectly through Australia. After reports of casualties in his country, a Sri Lankan Navy commander called the Hawaii warning center to ask about the potential for more tsunamis. The U.S. ambassador in Sri Lanka also called the center asking to be notified of any big aftershocks. Meanwhile, India's science and technology minister requested an investigation into a report that his country's air force base was told of a massive quake an hour before the tsunami hit its southern shore but disaster officials were notified too late to take action to protect people.

	01-01-2005 23:48									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo But your own government is responsible for you if you get killed or injured, or stranded... in helping find you and get you back to the country. This isn't a nanny state we are talking about.

In theory yes, but in the real world if you rely on your goverment to do too much then your just asking for trouble. There is the cliche line of the American threatening to call their Congressman when things don't go their way. What a country can do for it's citizens overseas is limited.

I will say that a couple thousand should be a big deal though. Something that any goverment would have to sit up and take notice of.

	02-01-2005 00:33									#109
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quote: You think this is a question of infrastructure? What infrastructure can withstand something like the Amazonas river washing over it? What hospital system could handle that number of injured?

Reasonably well? Ours. Yours. Each major hospital in the US has "life flight" helicopters -- normally to save people from car wrecks. Every major freeway can land C-130 transports due to the requirements of the Cold War. Pretty much every county has an airport for smaller planes, in the alternative.

	02-01-2005 00:49									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber In theory yes, but in the real world if you rely on your goverment to do too much then your just asking for trouble. There is the cliche line of the American threatening to call their Congressman when things don't go their way. What a country can do for it's citizens overseas is limited. I will say that a couple thousand should be a big deal though. Something that any goverment would have to sit up and take notice of.

No but say you lose your passports and get stranded.. or even arrested.. it is up to the embassy to a least get you into contact with family back home. It is up to the embassy staff at these countries to get these people at least contacted with their family back home so something can be done.

If it is one person who dies, then yes, the family back at home should take care of it themselves. However, if it is several thousand, then it is the responsibility of the government to act fast.

	02-01-2005 05:56									#111
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Japan is now the largest single donor with $500 million

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4139137.stm

don't worry. Unlike some of you america haters, I have faith the U.S. will eventually raise their total. It's not like the money does a whole lot of good at this point. They have plenty of money, just no infrastructure to put the money to good use. More money will be needed later as the actual reconstruction begins.

	02-01-2005 06:05									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie You think this is a question of infrastructure? What infrastructure can withstand something like the Amazonas river washing over it? What hospital system could handle that number of injured? Edit: Giancarlo beat me to it.

A person with a hotmail account and the noaa on his favorites list could have gotten warning to people. This was not a question of what to do about all the unprepared dead people, its a question of how to prepare and warn people, and they willfully dropped the ball. the Thai's didn't send out a warning because it might hurt their tourism industry.

warning stopped:
http://wizbangblog.com/archives/004637.php

US noaa knew of earthquake and attempted to get that warning out:
http://www.aljazeera.com/me.asp?service_ID=6430

More specifically, the kind of infrastructure proposed by Bush to these people 20 months ago:
http://www.state.gov/g/oes/rls/fs/2003/25804.htm

	02-01-2005 09:13									#113
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I think it is safe to say that we have most likely seen the most important event of the decade and possibly since the collapse of Communism, a catastrophe that, hopefully will put 9-11 in perspective for a lot of Americans. But not if they watch CNN.

My wife and I have been viewing CNN throughout the evening, and I finally seen the ultimate in parochial American news. In a description of the tsunami's effects throughout Asia, the following line (paraphrased!) was used...

"... Sri Lanka... meanwhile, miles away in Indonesia... "

Then I saw that GW and his brother Jeb are going to visit, Jeb coming along because he has "experience in dealing with large scale catastrophes as governor of Florida."



Sorry, but Jeb first is going to have to get a proper perspective on the scale of this disaster: There is what, 1000-5000 miles of devastated coastland, stretching from Indonesia all the way across the belly of Asia through India and Sri Lanka, washing over the Maldives, ending its made for TV journey all the way in Africa (5000-6000 miles away?)? There's going to be a quarter million officially perished because of the tsunami, there could be as many to die because of disease (and what a fertile feeding and breeding ground for any new nasty diseases that would like to crop up?). Jeb and Dubya are most likely expecting devastation on the scale of Andrew, "just bigger." Well, they're going to get it. But it's not going to be just bigger, it'll be broader, more in depth, more overwhelming as the President's helicopter flies miles after miles after miles of tsunami destruction - only to realize that they haven't even left Indonesia (or wherever) yet.

And here's CNN, supposedly a premiere international news network, describing the distance between Sri Lanka and Indonesia as mere "miles".

Then, in another segment, they describe the recipients of the first aid shipment of supplies as being reduced to "a pack of animals" because they were ducking as they were approaching the helicopter, without once considering that the people might be ducking underneath the ROTATING PROPELLERS on the friggin' HELICOPTER. Also, they might also be worried about getting shot if they rush too soon. Dumbasses.

Since this is a political thread, let me ask a question: If John Kerry had won, what would be the Bush administrations reaction? I think Bush would give more, knowing that Kerry was going to have to foot the bill, knowing that Kerry couldn't very well object to the outgoing President's grand gesture of $25 billion in aid.

By the way, bad things occur in three. 9-11... SE Asia tsunami... ???

Lastly: what should we call this disaster? The Wave? It does has a connotation to an American baseball idiom, but I don't think that should discount this for the billions who don't follow baseball.

	02-01-2005 09:18									#114
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that may be true, but let me again mention the typhoon of 1991 which killed about the same number of peopel.

strange how people's memories are short. Myself included. I forgot all about that typhoon.

and this catastrophe cannot compare to the genocides in africa.

	02-01-2005 09:21									#115
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and I really do not like people comparing this to 9/11. The news is doing it all the time

9/11 really wasn't that bad when you think about it. I still don't understand what the big deal is. Only 3000 dead. Yeah it seemed like a big deal at the time, nothing seemed bigger. But then **** like this happens, and you realize 9/11 wasn't ****.

	02-01-2005 11:57									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident and I really do not like people comparing this to 9/11. The news is doing it all the time 9/11 really wasn't that bad when you think about it. I still don't understand what the big deal is. Only 3000 dead. Yeah it seemed like a big deal at the time, nothing seemed bigger. But then **** like this happens, and you realize 9/11 wasn't ****.

I favor comparisons that show how vast this problem is compared to 9-11.

After 9-11, $1.1 billion was given by private charities including Andrew Mellon's donation of $50,500,000 to "NYC cultural and performing arts directly affected by September 11th, plus support to existing disaster relief." How much of the infrastructure in the Maldives will $50,000,000 rebuild? http://fdncenter.org/research/trend...df/9_11updt.pdf

Governments were even hastier to spend, bailing out industry left and right - do you know, in the airline industry the US government bailed out the equivalent of SEVEN Chryslers in the aftermath of 9-11, and nobody, not a one, batted an eye. Thanks, Jimmy Carter - your legacy lives on. Last thing anybody, especially any politician, wanted to do was to have others think that they "didn't care" about 9-11.

I agree with Egelund: people, Americans, have been stingy with this disaster and that is to our shame.

	02-01-2005 13:29									#117
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quote: that may be true, but let me again mention the typhoon of 1991 which killed about the same number of peopel. strange how people's memories are short. Myself included. I forgot all about that typhoon. and this catastrophe cannot compare to the genocides in africa.

Yep. Like I said before, this could've been a lot worse. Let's not blow it out of proportion; nature is fully capable of dealing out something more disastrous than this earthquake/tsunami.

quote: I agree with Egelund: people, Americans, have been stingy with this disaster and that is to our shame.

quote: The US government has ponied up $350 million for tsunami aid, with more promised. Coca-Cola has pledged $10 million; Exxon Mobil, $5 million; Wal-Mart, $2 million; Walt Disney Co., $1 million; Pfizer Inc, thirty-five million dollars. Amazon's Red Cross appeal is growing by $3 million per day. The total from non-government contributions has reached $158,285,000, according to Chuck Simmons.

quote: Fueled by Internet donations from hundreds of thousands of individuals, the outpouring to help victims of the Indian Ocean tsunami is on track to surpass gifts for victims of previous natural disasters, and charities say contributions are even outpacing those of the first days after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. Americans are donating so much money — so fast — that relief agencies say the totals are rising dramatically hour to hour.

	02-01-2005 14:23									#118
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We all have to be very careful and not just throw money at the situation. Whether you like to admit it or not, there is a lot of corruption in many of these countries that were hit and throwing money at it won't solve a thing. A lot of this money would just disappear if used the wrong way. And I say again lets keep the UN role to a minimum. If they want to cook food and pass out blankets, and maybe help with medicine.. okay.. but they shouldn't head anything because they would screw it up.

	02-01-2005 14:52									#119
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I have to agree with that. If Sweden and the rest of the world was slow to react, the UN again showed that it was even more slow. Only after the US, Japan, Australia and some other countries had formed a core help group did Kofi Annan grumpily wake up and complain that the UN should lead it.

	03-01-2005 04:57									#120
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT I favor comparisons that show how vast this problem is compared to 9-11. After 9-11, $1.1 billion was given by private charities including Andrew Mellon's donation of $50,500,000 to "NYC cultural and performing arts directly affected by September 11th, plus support to existing disaster relief." How much of the infrastructure in the Maldives will $50,000,000 rebuild? http://fdncenter.org/research/trend...df/9_11updt.pdf Governments were even hastier to spend, bailing out industry left and right - do you know, in the airline industry the US government bailed out the equivalent of SEVEN Chryslers in the aftermath of 9-11, and nobody, not a one, batted an eye. Thanks, Jimmy Carter - your legacy lives on. Last thing anybody, especially any politician, wanted to do was to have others think that they "didn't care" about 9-11. I agree with Egelund: people, Americans, have been stingy with this disaster and that is to our shame.

americans are stingy? I think not.

We will end up spending billions.

It costs $120,000 a day just to operate one aircraft carrier. The U.S. navy operations alone will go into the millions.