03-01-2005 23:32									#1
	New to CtP2 Tired of ads?

Hello everyone.

I'm new to the Call to Power forums. I've seen some of you in the Civ2 or Civ3 forums, but it seems many game players are either in the Civ forums or the CtP forums. Interesting.

When CtP1 first came out, I purchased and gave it a try. Perhaps the interface was too different, too many new concepts, learning curve - whatever, I ended up returning back to Civ2. Then, I took a break from gaming -- returning right around the time of PTW - staying with Civ3 and C3C (Conquests) until last week.

Last week, I dusted off CtP1, installed the game and played a game or two. Wow. Maybe its because I got use to the "non-Civ2" Civ3 interface that I became more open to CtP's interface. Lots of people still prefer Civ2's interface over any Civ3 variant or CtP release.

Anyway, I the Public Works concept and the Stacked Combat. I had such a good time that I went to Amazon and found CtP2 for sale. Wow, it's hard to find this game now...it's not sold in any traditional retail outlets. A few questions.

How much different is CtP2 from the original?

Is the stacked combat changed in CtP2? Flanking?

In CtP1 when my stack attacked a 1 pop city on a hill, my horses and cannons were destroyed when victorous because they were not allowed to enter that terrain type...that seems like a flaw. Is this in CtP2?

Bombard seems a bit powerful...easy to totally wipe out land units with your naval units. The same in CtP2?

I've been reading the threads in the section -- what great work Solver, Maq, Locutus and others have done to organize CtP information. Thanks!

	04-01-2005 16:40									#2
	Re: New to CtP2 Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Shogun Gunner edit...... How much different is CtP2 from the original?

There are a few differences that seem to make me prefer CTP2 over CTP1, although i did enjoy CTP1 when that first came out.

For me the biggest thing is the country border that CTP2 uses, you have a zone of influence around your cities and this has the gameplay aspect of making you try to place your cities so this zone overlaps - creating reasonably realistic country borders. You can only build tile improvements inside these borders.

Second the stacked combat has been improved in CTP2(upto 12 units now) - flanking units do just that, attack from the sides, so its possible to have a frontline engagement with the usual ranged attack option and now when a space opens up in the enemies front line your 'flanking' units also get an attack in. Its just another level of 'realism' that i like.
On the downside it can be exploited to give the human player a big advantage over the AI(in that the AI does have issues in organising its armies well).

And the third big sell for me is the Modding and source-code work. All the new and latest stuff is being done on CTP2, and its pretty close to being the best(IMHO) historic tbs released to date, especialy if your after a more 'real-world' type of civ game(anti ICS etc).

If you do track down a copy of CTP2 - then its essential to have a go at the mods that are described elsewhere in these forums, they do atleast make the game a challange.
And once you've got the hang of that - then i'm sure the source code project is a good thing to keep an eye on. Hopefully the guys working on it will get a much better and fixed standard game of CTP2 in the next few months(its already much improved in the single player game).

Oh and welcome to CTP2 forums

	04-01-2005 19:11									#3
	Re: New to CtP2 Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Shogun Gunner I'm new to the Call to Power forums. I've seen some of you in the Civ2 or Civ3 forums, but it seems many game players are either in the Civ forums or the CtP forums. Interesting.

Its hard to go back to pushing hundreds of workers/settlers and units around once youre used to PW and stacked combat.

quote: How much different is CtP2 from the original?

To add to what CoT said, basically city improvements (granary etc) and trade (monopolies for science) are more important in CtP1 while tile improvements (farms etc) and specialists (scientists etc) are more important in CtP2. Activision kinda swung too far the other way when they were looking to fix imbalances in CtP1. I expect us to make everything useful once the more important things are fixed in the sourcecode.

Resources are collected differently in CtP2 than any other civ game too. These threads describe how it works.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=49519
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=47498
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=17362

quote: In CtP1 when my stack attacked a 1 pop city on a hill, my horses and cannons were destroyed when victorous because they were not allowed to enter that terrain type...that seems like a flaw. Is this in CtP2?

I think you mean mountain instead of hill. Yeah it still exists because mounted and wheeled units cant move on mountains without roads. IIRC last we got upto in the sourcecode was having a poll on how it should be dealt with a size 1 city when it gets captured by those units, so its likely to be fixed soon.

quote: Bombard seems a bit powerful...easy to totally wipe out land units with your naval units. The same in CtP2?

Well you cant bombard land in CtP2 until you get Battleships, and you have Bombers and Artillery to counter it at that time, so its much more balanced in CtP2. Although a few of the units still need rebalancing in default CtP2. In CtP1 you could bombard land with Ship of the Line and they also carried units so they were a kind of super unit.

Also bombard is less powerful because flanking ability is important, and the flanking units are all fast units, whereas the bombarding units are generally slower, so bombarding isnt the be all in CtP2.

	04-01-2005 22:29									#4
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Thanks child of Thor and Maquiladora!!! Is my imagination or is this game more popular with the Europeans than the Americans?

I was lucky enough to find a "barely used" copy of CtP2 on Amazon.com for $15. I bought it yesterday and should get it in about a week.

I found myself agreeing at many points in both posts.... the Ship of Line superunit for sure! , yes it was a mountain that killed my wheeled units (that's what they get for winning a battle )

quote: All the new and latest stuff is being done on CTP2, and its pretty close to being the best(IMHO) historic tbs released to date, especialy if your after a more 'real-world' type of civ game(anti ICS etc).

That's a big plus for me. The ICS issue, not completely solved in Civ3, can really increase the tedium. I'll keep an eye on the CtP2 source code project forum.

Thanks for the welcome guys. I should have stopped by a long time ago.

	04-01-2005 22:33									#5
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Yeah, you should . Again, there's this advantage that CtP2 is getting better, with bugfixes, AI improvements, etc., while Civ 3 isn't.

The city limit I personally find annoying or at least wrongly done, but overall CtP2 is indeed the best Civ game to date.

	05-01-2005 01:18									#6
	Re: Re: New to CtP2 Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Maquiladora Resources are collected differently in CtP2 than any other civ game too. These threads describe how it works. http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=49519 http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=47498 http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=17362

Hey Maquiladora, I think you pasted the title and not the URL here. The links don't work.

	05-01-2005 01:38									#7
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Solver Yeah, you should . Again, there's this advantage that CtP2 is getting better, with bugfixes, AI improvements, etc., while Civ 3 isn't.

Yes, it's a poor showing for Firaxis - the game significantly changed from Civ3 vanilla, to Civ3 PTW, and to C3C with substantial changes in the patches for C3C. That's pretty close to unacceptable in my mind. They should work on fixing existing problems and not rolling out additional units, civs, features, etc.

I still like Civ3 - currently in several PBEMS - and I'm hoping (maybe foolishly, maybe not) that cIV will be great. However, cIV won't be released for sometime. I'll excited to give CtP2 a go - especially the source code project you and others are working on.

	05-01-2005 02:01									#8
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

SG,

In my sig I converted mostly SnOOpys civ3 terrain graphics to Ctp2 in case you are used to Civ3's style.

	05-01-2005 02:17									#9
	Re: Re: Re: New to CtP2 Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Shogun Gunner quote: Originally posted by Maquiladora Resources are collected differently in CtP2 than any other civ game too. These threads describe how it works. http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=49519 http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=47498 http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=17362 Hey Maquiladora, I think you pasted the title and not the URL here. The links don't work.

Well try these ones:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...?threadid=49519
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...?threadid=47498
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...?threadid=17362

-Martin

	05-01-2005 11:13									#10
	Re: Re: Re: New to CtP2 Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Shogun Gunner Hey Maquiladora, I think you pasted the title and not the URL here. The links don't work.

Yes sorry rushed it

	06-01-2005 13:14									#11
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

EPW has an US flag, i live in California

but yeah, u should know its hard to get americans to play older games, no need to mention TBS

	15-01-2005 23:37									#12
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I'm thinking about trying this game out one more time. I was going to try to sell the game to Tass, but he backed out.

I hate spending money on a game I don't play, and there many concepts in this game that seem cool.

but I still prefer vanilla versions of the game, though I may try the mods. But for the most part I avoid mods, I tend to not like them for some reason.

	16-01-2005 03:40									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I just received my purchase via FedEx this week. I installed the game last night and I will hopefully get some free time to try it out tonight.

You are right Diss. There are some cool concepts in this game. I'm eager to start.

	16-01-2005 04:46									#14
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Dissident but I still prefer vanilla versions of the game, though I may try the mods. But for the most part I avoid mods, I tend to not like them for some reason.

What do you have against some more city styles, goods, AI improvements and some small additions (just to summarize ApolytonPack + GoodMod)?

-Martin

	16-01-2005 04:55									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I know how Diss feels, I suppose thats why I play MP, but Martin is right, you need at least Apolyton Pack for a good AI in SP. Just think of it as an official patch that improves the AI and a little balance, rather than one of those mods thats someone elses vision of the game and changes it totally.

	16-01-2005 06:06									#16
	Support Apolyton

Yeah, I also like vanilla versions, but in CtP2 it's different. If you play it vanilla, you will really be disappointed with all the bugs, awful AI, balance issues, etc.

So take the source code build, Apolyton Pack and play then. It's indeed more like a patch than a mod, it sets things right instead of overhauling the gameplay, as Maq says.

	16-01-2005 09:59									#17
	Full PM-box? Change here!

the ai didn't seem too bad when I played today.

I was on easy level and losing cities to the ai . granted, I had trouble keeping track of the enemy units. and for some reason it didn't show the battle animation when I was defending my base. I had no idea I lost the base

where do I start. There are so many things I hate about this game. Now I know why I quit playing 2 previous times.

As I've said, there are many cool concepts. When reading the manual, the game seems cool as hell. But then the actual gameplay begins.

Are there any mods that can fix the interface? The game is clunky and not smooth. It's a real pain doing anything. even scrolling the screen around is jerky. I tried using the arrows on the keyboard, but those aren't really any better.

another problem I have is the message system. Yeah I kind of tried to get in the habit of checking the messages every turn. But it's a real pain. And then you can't see the right part of the message because the message is too long and goes past the right part of the box.

Important messages need to be popups. I may hate popups on the internet, but I like them for important events in game.

And the city build screen, and the city screen. So many tabs... argh.

Oh well, I gave it 3 shots.

	17-01-2005 23:46									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Dissident the ai didn't seem too bad when I played today. I was on easy level and losing cities to the ai . granted, I had trouble keeping track of the enemy units. and for some reason it didn't show the battle animation when I was defending my base. I had no idea I lost the base

Was the city unguarded? You wont see the battleview if theres no units in your city. All it takes is a simple scan around your cities to see, theres also the city capture sound playing when you lose a city.

quote: Are there any mods that can fix the interface? The game is clunky and not smooth. It's a real pain doing anything. even scrolling the screen around is jerky. I tried using the arrows on the keyboard, but those aren't really any better.

I could easily level the same thing at smac and definitely civ3.

Did you lower the scroll delay to 0 in Options > Advanced? I think most people play using scroll delay 0, it defaults to 5 I think though. On 0 its a lot smoother than civ3 or smac.

quote: another problem I have is the message system. Yeah I kind of tried to get in the habit of checking the messages every turn. But it's a real pain. And then you can't see the right part of the message because the message is too long and goes past the right part of the box.

If you cant get into the hang of using the msg tab (I couldnt), just use the national manager (F2) and the city manager occaisionally (F3), if you dont check those for queues you can catch your cities for yellow names, meaning an empty queue.

F2 > status tab is a lot easier to check every now and then. If you make queues or occaisionally make the same queue for many cities (say Theatre and Granary in new cities) you shouldnt need to check this often once you get used to it.

The queue system is really important, especially editing many queues at once, youll find you have so much free time to enjoy thinking strategically than doing endless clicks as in smac or civ3.

quote: Important messages need to be popups. I may hate popups on the internet, but I like them for important events in game.

I agree losing a city should be a popup its more immersive, but its hardly a gamebreaker since you run a quick check over your land each turn anyway. If you dont then I suggest you play the game more slowly at first and youll speed up a lot when you get used to it.

quote: And the city build screen, and the city screen. So many tabs... argh.

You should hardly need to use most of the tabs in the city manager often, only the "Specialists" and sometimes the "Units" tab. F3 or right-clicl > city manager on the city.

quote: Oh well, I gave it 3 shots.

You may have given it 3 shots but I doubt very much you gave the same effort to familiarize yourself with the interface as you did smac or civ3. You must know you dont get familiar with it after one or three games.

	18-01-2005 00:42									#19
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Yeah, Diss, just put a bit of effort into it. Play it for two or three days, and you will get used to the interface. If I could get used to the horrible graphics of SMAC, you can get familiar with the CtP2 interface.

	18-01-2005 06:12									#20
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Maquiladora Was the city unguarded? You wont see the battleview if theres no units in your city. All it takes is a simple scan around your cities to see, theres also the city capture sound playing when you lose a city. I could easily level the same thing at smac and definitely civ3. Did you lower the scroll delay to 0 in Options > Advanced? I think most people play using scroll delay 0, it defaults to 5 I think though. On 0 its a lot smoother than civ3 or smac. If you cant get into the hang of using the msg tab (I couldnt), just use the national manager (F2) and the city manager occaisionally (F3), if you dont check those for queues you can catch your cities for yellow names, meaning an empty queue. F2 > status tab is a lot easier to check every now and then. If you make queues or occaisionally make the same queue for many cities (say Theatre and Granary in new cities) you shouldnt need to check this often once you get used to it. The queue system is really important, especially editing many queues at once, youll find you have so much free time to enjoy thinking strategically than doing endless clicks as in smac or civ3. I agree losing a city should be a popup its more immersive, but its hardly a gamebreaker since you run a quick check over your land each turn anyway. If you dont then I suggest you play the game more slowly at first and youll speed up a lot when you get used to it. You should hardly need to use most of the tabs in the city manager often, only the "Specialists" and sometimes the "Units" tab. F3 or right-clicl > city manager on the city. You may have given it 3 shots but I doubt very much you gave the same effort to familiarize yourself with the interface as you did smac or civ3. You must know you dont get familiar with it after one or three games.

thanks for the response.

I did notice the cities with the yellow names. I had a feeling that's what it meant. It would be nice if it would display what the city is building on the world map (as in smac and civ3)

and I do believe my cities were guarded. They had 1 hoplite in them. I take it guarding cities with 1 unit is not enough . What's a good amount to put in the cities?

and I'll try that scroll delay- I didn't see the option for it. I may have missed it.

maybe I'll mess around with it some more.

As for the ai. I was impressed they used their ships and dropped their units behind the "front line" and to my rear most cities. I still have yet to build any ships. Is navy actually important in this game?

also what facilities do you guys build? It doesn't actually say what exactly granaries do.

	18-01-2005 06:14									#21
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

and if I had played this game first, and then went to smac and civ3, I'd probably be more used to this interface. But I've been spoiled on those games for a while.

	18-01-2005 07:16									#22
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Dissident It would be nice if it would display what the city is building on the world map (as in smac and civ3)

I agree in one way. Best if you could toggle which 3 to show, Name, Building/time to build, and turns to next growth. Maybe this will happen in the sourcecode project eventually, I know turns to new growth figure is being worked on.

quote: and I do believe my cities were guarded. They had 1 hoplite in them. I take it guarding cities with 1 unit is not enough . What's a good amount to put in the cities?

Any military v another should bring up the battleview.

I usually have 1 or 2 cheap units to increase happiness. Defending inside your own cities should be a last resort, use cheap units along your border to see the enemy coming so you can fight them halfway. Or you can build forts and listening posts but it becomes expensive and they can be pillaged if you lose control of the area.

quote: As for the ai. I was impressed they used their ships and dropped their units behind the "front line" and to my rear most cities. I still have yet to build any ships. Is navy actually important in this game?

Its more important than in civ3 for example, to protect trade routes and your sea improvements and to pillage the enemy, so it can become really useful.

quote: also what facilities do you guys build? It doesn't actually say what exactly granaries do.

You really havent played at all have you.

It says in the Great Library (civilopedia) and in the build manager when you select it - it gives +10% food and protects from starvation for 5 turns.

http://www.geocities.com/ctp2strategy/buildings.htm

	18-01-2005 09:47									#23
	Put an end to popups!

I started my first game of Ctp2 tonight, I finally got a break from the wife and kids...just a few questions.

I read above about the scroll delay, and that will be a good suggestion for me, I'll set that to zero. However, when scrolling around the map, it goes way too fast. Especially in the beginning of the game when all I see is 20 or so squares around me, it's hard to stop on a dime.

I can see many things are similar to Ctp1, but one thing seems to be missing. I used to be able to right click on a city and see what squares were being worked. How do you do that in CtP2?

As far as strategy, apparently I sunk too much money into public works as I'm being out researched and produced. I've already learned I need to scale that back.

I'm only 30 turns in the game so far...

	18-01-2005 10:16									#24
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Nice to see someone having a proper crack at it.

quote: Originally posted by Shogun Gunner I read above about the scroll delay, and that will be a good suggestion for me, I'll set that to zero. However, when scrolling around the map, it goes way too fast. Especially in the beginning of the game when all I see is 20 or so squares around me, it's hard to stop on a dime.

I use the arrow keys for small movements and cursor to edge of screen or the mini-map for larger moves, or rarely for a big overview zooming out max.

quote: I can see many things are similar to Ctp1, but one thing seems to be missing. I used to be able to right click on a city and see what squares were being worked. How do you do that in CtP2?

I guess you didnt read those 3 threads Martin pasted earlier in this thread.

But perhaps its not so good to know the system inside-out when youre playing the first time.

	18-01-2005 18:15									#25
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Yes, busted Especially embarasing since I asked you to repost since I couldn't read them the first thing!

I finally got a few moments to play this weekend, so I dove right in. I'll revisit those threads.

So far, I'm enjoying it. The interface isn't bad -- but there are a lot of tabs. I don't consider that a negative, but it just takes a bit of time to get use to it. I usually know *what* I'm looking for, and finding it on the second or third place I look.

	18-01-2005 21:26									#26
	Full PM-box? Change here!

'you must unlearn all you have learned'

But you've reminded me to get on and finish my 'used to play civ - now trying CTP2?' newbie play guide

	18-01-2005 23:33									#27
	Inflate your Upload Space

Don't worry, you'll get used to the CtP2 interface. Won't take too much time.

And CoT, I hope that guide is more strategic, because we already have a game-mechanics and main-differences guide.

	18-01-2005 23:37									#28
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I think CoT is writing a more step-by-step newbie guide for the AE manual?

	19-01-2005 07:58									#29
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

sorry for the OT, but since this is a welcoming thread (and popular)
i'd like to ask the coders (or whoever) to check out this thread this help thread
46 views but no (useful) replies?

	19-01-2005 15:12									#30
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Maquiladora I think CoT is writing a more step-by-step newbie guide for the AE manual?

Yes - its for when we release the new AE version, and it will be a complete('monkey see - monkey do') step-by-step description to the UI, with a walk through playguide of a good number of turns aimed at the complete newbie to CTP2(As complaints aimed at CTP2 often stem from here).
I'll test it on my gf to ensure its bullet proof, as she's never played civ or ctp......or any other kind of tbs

As for a strat guide, someone else will have to do that - i dont use strat guides myself so wouldn't know where to start