11-01-2005 20:55									#61
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quote: Whats that to, Dan?

The Pew Center for the the People and the Press global opinions section. The stats can be found in those reports.

	11-01-2005 20:57									#62
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Which one? I went through a few and couldn't find these stats.

	11-01-2005 21:01									#63
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The only ones that aren't included in the Pew polls are the Iranian poll figures. I don't have the underlying figures for the Iranian (actually Tehranian) poll, but it has been widely reported in places like the following...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/articl...-717362,00.html

As I recall, some people were thrown in jail for conducting this poll.

	11-01-2005 21:05									#64
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Which Pew study has the ES/Nicaragua numbers?

	11-01-2005 21:08									#65
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I'd add that I very much doubt that they love us in El Salvador, given that we just held their remittances (far more important than any Salvadorian industry) over their heads to get them to vote for a bunch of fascists.

	11-01-2005 21:13									#66
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I didn't see El Salvador or Nicaragua mentioned at all on the Pew page.

DanS, it might help if you linked to the actual polls you're talking about, rather than to a page that requires people to dig for them. You wouldn't be obfuscating, would you?

	11-01-2005 21:17									#67
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It seems to me that the argument he is making - even if true (I'm dubious) - is ultimately useless if one cares at all for morality/ethics. It's an "ends justify the means" argument, pure and simple: hey, we did this in El Salvador, and they don't hate us (supposedly), so it worked!

Does it matter whether or not what we did was wrong?

To me it does. There are some things, IMO, you just don't do. Organizing "death squads" (or, if you want to soften it - training foreign security forces in the methods of collective punishment) is such a thing.

-Arrian

	11-01-2005 21:19									#68
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When I heard about the Death Squads on NPR this morning I was almost puking, this is disgusting.

	11-01-2005 21:26									#69
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The US is popular in Iran, but of course, as was noted before, wll over half of the population of Iran was born post revolution, and the clerical mismanagement of the economy has created vast resentment amongst the population towards the clerics.

As for Central America- many people want to go to the US for economic reasons, and remitances are a large part of income- but do people remember past US actions "fondly"? Hardly. Heck, in Nicaragua Daniel ortega might become president again.

	11-01-2005 21:35									#70
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I thought for sure they had ES/Nicaragua numbers, but they don't. They do have Guatemala and Honduras favorability ratings of 82% and 80%, respectively. Both countries had CIA-trained death squads. Negroponte was ambassador to Honduras 1981 - 1985.

http://people-press.org/reports/pdf/165topline.pdf

Of course, as Berzerker alluded to, the US had a 71% favorability rating in Vietnam as well. We did a lot of this stuff there very directly.

Edited to change Negroponte's post to Honduras rather than Guatemala.

Last edited by DanS on 11-01-2005 at 22:15

	11-01-2005 21:43									#71
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quote: It seems to me that the argument he is making - even if true (I'm dubious) - is ultimately useless if one cares at all for morality/ethics. It's an "ends justify the means" argument, pure and simple: hey, we did this in El Salvador, and they don't hate us (supposedly), so it worked!

I'm not making any arguments here. Rather, I'm seeking the facts about how things work in this world.

	11-01-2005 21:45									#72
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In Guatemala, 51% said somewhat favorable, with 31% Very favorable. Economics is probably the main reason for that- note the poor feelings they have towards the military in Guatemala, the military being the instrument of killing. They have not forgotten the murderousness, they simply blame their own military more than they blame the US.

Of course, there aren't huge numbers fo Iraqis living in the US ans sedning hundreds of millions back to their families, now are there?

	11-01-2005 21:48									#73
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quote: Of course, there aren't huge numbers fo Iraqis living in the US ans sedning hundreds of millions back to their families, now are there?

There are more than 100,000 Iraqis living in the United States. I don't know how much money they send back.

	11-01-2005 21:48									#74
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You realize that the ES/Nic numbers were taken less than a year after 9/11, and are thus slightly skewed, don't you?

	11-01-2005 21:50									#75
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quote: Originally posted by DanS I'm not making any arguments here. Rather, I'm seeking the facts about how things work in this world.

no you are not- there are hudreds of reasons why people make up their opinion of a state- heck, maybe Hondurans remember more know aid pledged after the horrible 1998 Hurricane season than the killing in the 80's- given that you have 0 evidence of what makes up people's minds, these numbers don't really matter at all to the discussion, now do they?

Heck, Argentina had US supported death squads in the 70's, and our favorable rating there is 34% total- can you explain the difference? If not, then what the heck do you think these numbers mean?

Explain why our popularity total in S.Korea is lower than in Vietnam? Can you? Again, if you can;t, these numbers are really meaningless to the discussion.

	11-01-2005 21:51									#76
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quote: I'm not making any arguments here. Rather, I'm seeking the facts about how things work in this world.

One can make an argument in the form of a question, or questions.

That you do not reject the idea of training death squads on its face is in itself a position, Dan. That is, if this tactic acheives a certain goal, it is worthy of consideration.

-Arrian

	11-01-2005 21:51									#77
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Even if they are slightly skewed, 82% and 80% are above even Britain's (our chums, our buddies) numbers.

	11-01-2005 21:52									#78
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quote: One can make an argument in the form of a question, or questions.

You can, but I'm not.

	11-01-2005 21:55									#79
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Barely. And note that ES and Nicaragua have no stake in the Iraq War, so one would expect a drop (i.e. by almost half) that resembles France/Germany rather than the UK. Favorability of ~50% is not spectacular, particularly given the large number of people born after the death squads, and that we hold them by the balls in that we control their access to good-paying jobs and thus remittances.

	11-01-2005 21:56									#80
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quote: Favorability of ~50% is not spectacular

Basically, you're pulling this number out of your ass?

	11-01-2005 21:59									#81
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quote: Originally posted by DanS There are more than 100,000 Iraqis living in the United States. I don't know how much money they send back.

Well, the 2000 census recorded 37,714 individual claiming Iraqi ancestry specifically, with 205,822 just claming Arab, so some could be there. Can you point to the source of your numbers? Mine, the US census:

http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/SAFFPeople?_sse=on

According to the census 372,487 people of Guatemalan ancestry live in the US, compared to a total population of 14,280,596 according to the CIA.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications...ok/geos/gt.html

	11-01-2005 22:01									#82
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The average of the France/Germany drop is 40%. 60% of 82% and 80% are 49.2% and 48%, respectively.

	11-01-2005 22:02									#83
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Here...

http://www.migrationinformation.org...play.cfm?id=113

I plussed up the numbers marginally for post-census immigration.

	11-01-2005 22:03									#84
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You can't extrapolate from France and Germany. Comparatively speaking, we weren't very popular in France and Germany in the first place and the governments of these two countries were the ringleaders in the Security Council opposed to US action in Iraq.

And as stated, I don't have numbers for ES/Nicaragua, but rather have them for Honduras and Guatemala. Negroponte was our man in Honduras from 1981 through 1985.

Edited to change Guatemala to Honduras for Negroponte.

Last edited by DanS on 11-01-2005 at 22:14

	11-01-2005 22:57									#85
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Cooincidentally I'm sure, Honduras pulled out of the "Coalition of the Willing" right after Negroponte was selected as Ambassador to Iraq.

	11-01-2005 23:03									#86
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No coincidence at all. Spain pulled out, leaving the Latin American nations in the coalition without needed support. Honduras had no support system of its own.

	11-01-2005 23:07									#87
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You forgot Poland (seen as a replacement for Spain).

Last edited by Ramo on 11-01-2005 at 23:15

	11-01-2005 23:18									#88
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quote: Originally posted by DanS No coincidence at all. Spain pulled out, leaving the Latin American nations in the coalition without needed support. Honduras had no support system of its own.

And the US didn't offer it?

That Negroponte

	12-01-2005 09:18									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian How can you even consider it? What the hell is wrong with you? -Arrian

EXACTLY.

The very fact that Dan still needs time to go over this shows an opinion already and is scary to me.

Death squads are generally not a good thing.

	12-01-2005 09:19									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian It seems to me that the argument he is making - even if true (I'm dubious) - is ultimately useless if one cares at all for morality/ethics. It's an "ends justify the means" argument, pure and simple: hey, we did this in El Salvador, and they don't hate us (supposedly), so it worked! Does it matter whether or not what we did was wrong? To me it does. There are some things, IMO, you just don't do. Organizing "death squads" (or, if you want to soften it - training foreign security forces in the methods of collective punishment) is such a thing. -Arrian