15-01-2005 09:08									#1
	Geronimo Finally buys CivIII Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

After years of snubbing civIII because I was pissed that once again a Civ game was being released with no built in multiplayer support, I finally broke down and bought it with a gift card when I saw the 3 disk Civilization complete version for sale for a reasonable price.

My first question is, what is the most important change in the game to consider when starting your first Civ3 game after having played hundreds and hundreds of Civ2 games? Usually just reading the changes in the thick guide book doesn't really give a good indication of which changes really matter. At least that's what I learned when I first played civ2.

thanks in advance for any advice!

	15-01-2005 09:10									#2
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so you yelled and took the plunge, eh?

Have fun!

	15-01-2005 09:14									#3
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quote: Originally posted by Shogun Gunner so you yelled and took the plunge, eh? Have fun!

Yah, but now I find that I don't want to play my first game until i have a better handle on how the game balance has shifted from civ2. Is the AI still pathologically stupid?

	15-01-2005 09:41									#4
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The AI has it's shortcomings, but it seems to be more incompetence than pathological. It's easier to stay on good terms with a civ, depending on your actions. However, the AI doesn't know how to use several units it seems.

Naval
Especially modern era where the ships get more movement points and the navy becomes more important. The AI ships are on patrol randomly it seems.

Marines
Never have I seen an AI Marine perform an amphib assault.

Armies
Its a very, very rare occurance to see the AI build or use armies.

Artillery
The AI never masses it's artillery to soften up the defenses -- again, it seems worse in the modern era, compared to the ancient eras. It seems that the AI handles the catapults okay in Civ3, but forget proper usage of cannon, artillery or radar artillery.

	15-01-2005 10:05									#5
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Geronimo forget anything you know about civ2, it will probably only hurt you for Civ3.

We have lots of good threads on the strat forum. Are you going to play vanilla, PTW or C3C? They all play slightly different.

	15-01-2005 12:26									#6
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i do not know what i am playing. I just installed the 3 disk civ3 complete thing and selected new game. and I'm having endless frustrations so far. nothing is the same and the changes don't seem to make sense. I am *really* not looking forward to having to stop and curl up with that 300 page instruction manual filled with a mixture of new material and the same old old old concepts that I've already learned from playing thousands of civ1 and civ2 games before this.

	15-01-2005 12:30									#7
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In particular I do not understand how to load units onto a boat. I've been trying to put archers or warriors on to my curragh boats so I can get off my tiny island and look at the huge apparently uninhabited continent just off my coast but no matter what I do I can't seem to end up with a unit of any kind in my curragh! argh! Is it possible that they decided that it would be cool if the first ship unit couldn't transport anything? what the hell good are they then??

	15-01-2005 12:33									#8
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Another issue that I've had to deal with unit support. I can't figure out how to change home cities so that y one city with a barracks doesn't end up having to do all the support itself. So far there are no uprisings in despotism but I wanted to switch to republic soon and I know that means all my military units will not only cost a lot more to support but all my exploring units will make instant unhappy citizens in that barracks city.

I wish the civilopedia was more helpful

	15-01-2005 16:20									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo Another issue that I've had to deal with unit support. I can't figure out how to change home cities so that y one city with a barracks doesn't end up having to do all the support itself. So far there are no uprisings in despotism but I wanted to switch to republic soon and I know that means all my military units will not only cost a lot more to support but all my exploring units will make instant unhappy citizens in that barracks city. I wish the civilopedia was more helpful

Forget this concept. Civ3 does not support units from "home cities". They are paid from the "state coffers" instead (from your treasury). Exploring units cause no unhappiness.

	15-01-2005 18:27									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo In particular I do not understand how to load units onto a boat. I've been trying to put archers or warriors on to my curragh boats so I can get off my tiny island and look at the huge apparently uninhabited continent just off my coast but no matter what I do I can't seem to end up with a unit of any kind in my curragh! argh! Is it possible that they decided that it would be cool if the first ship unit couldn't transport anything? what the hell good are they then??

The Curragh doesn't transport units. It is an exploration vessel, and very good at it. If I start on the coast and have Alphabet, I will usually build one before anything else.

	15-01-2005 20:59									#11
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he meant "doesn't"
alphabet -> curraugh, 2 moves, no transport
Map making -> galley, 3 moves, 2 transport

seafaring civs get +1 move and lesser chance of sinking

greetz

	15-01-2005 22:53									#12
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If you can build curragh, you are playing C3C as they do not exist in the other versions.

	15-01-2005 22:56									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo In particular I do not understand how to load units onto a boat. I've been trying to put archers or warriors on to my curragh boats so I can get off my tiny island and look at the huge apparently uninhabited continent just off my coast but no matter what I do I can't seem to end up with a unit of any kind in my curragh! argh! Is it possible that they decided that it would be cool if the first ship unit couldn't transport anything? what the hell good are they then??

If the ship can load units and the unit is allowed to be loaded on that unit, then just move to the ship as if it were a tile. This is for ships along side. If the ship and unit are in the city, then select the unit and use the load button.

As you have already seen curragh do not have transport ability. The civpedia in game tool will give that type of info.

	15-01-2005 23:00									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo Another issue that I've had to deal with unit support. I can't figure out how to change home cities so that y one city with a barracks doesn't end up having to do all the support itself. So far there are no uprisings in despotism but I wanted to switch to republic soon and I know that means all my military units will not only cost a lot more to support but all my exploring units will make instant unhappy citizens in that barracks city. I wish the civilopedia was more helpful

That was the worst feature to me in civ2. Having to go around and change home city and to have unhappiness from a worker working a tile in the city borders. I mean what that meant was all engineers had to stay in the city to avoid unhappiness?

We are well rid of those concepts. It is more like it should be now with cost coming out of the empires treasury.

	16-01-2005 11:09									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Shogun Gunner Marines Never have I seen an AI Marine perform an amphib assault.

I had one of my cities taken via amphibious assault before. But it's only happened to me once.


Some things to consider when going from Civ 2 to Civ 3:

The game is quite a bit more difficult. You should play a few games on chieftain or warlord level to get used to the new features.

Artillery are no longer the powerful attackers they once were. Build stacks of these to accompany your attack forces. They're useful for softening-up enemy cities and units before you use other units to finish them off. The advantage of this is you can greatly reduce your casualty rates.

Air units can no longer move around on the map (they are immobile). Instead, they perform 'missions' such as rebasing, recon, and bombarding. Helicopters can carry 'foot' units (i.e. infantry, marines, TOW infantry, etc.) which can then be dropped-off by performing an airdrop mission.

There are no diplomat or spy units. Espionage is done on its own screen. Press either shift-E or ctrl-E (I can't remember which) to open this screen. Bribing units is no longer possible, and bribing cities (now known as propaganda) has a low chance of success.

There are no more caravans or freight. Trading is done via diplomacy. Also, wonders can no longer be rushed. You have to use scientific great leaders (SGLs) to rush wonders. (SGLs appear randomly if you are the first to discover a particular advance.)

Walls are weaker than they once were. You can no longer rely on defence alone to stop an invasion. Make sure you build enough offensive units to counter-attack enemy units. Bombarding units are handy for weakening an invasion force.

Culture is an important part of the game. Build cultural improvements (temples, libraries, etc.) to increase your cultural borders. If you have a lot of culture in your cities, enemy cities may flip to your side on occasion. If you have low culture, be prepared to have your cities flip to your enemies.

You can't use roads or rails that belong to other civs. You need to negotiate a 'right of passage' (RoP) agreement with other civs in order to be able to use their roads/rails. This really affects how quickly you can perform an invasion against an enemy. Be warned: if you declare war against another civ while your units are in their territory, it will hurt your reputation and other civs will be more reluctant to sign future RoPs with you.

That's all I feel like typing for now. I hope this helps!

	16-01-2005 13:12									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Xorbon I had one of my cities taken via amphibious assault before. But it's only happened to me once. Some things to consider when going from Civ 2 to Civ 3: The game is quite a bit more difficult. You should play a few games on chieftain or warlord level to get used to the new features. Artillery are no longer the powerful attackers they once were. Build stacks of these to accompany your attack forces. They're useful for softening-up enemy cities and units before you use other units to finish them off. The advantage of this is you can greatly reduce your casualty rates. Air units can no longer move around on the map (they are immobile). Instead, they perform 'missions' such as rebasing, recon, and bombarding. Helicopters can carry 'foot' units (i.e. infantry, marines, TOW infantry, etc.) which can then be dropped-off by performing an airdrop mission. There are no diplomat or spy units. Espionage is done on its own screen. Press either shift-E or ctrl-E (I can't remember which) to open this screen. Bribing units is no longer possible, and bribing cities (now known as propaganda) has a low chance of success. There are no more caravans or freight. Trading is done via diplomacy. Also, wonders can no longer be rushed. You have to use scientific great leaders (SGLs) to rush wonders. (SGLs appear randomly if you are the first to discover a particular advance.) Walls are weaker than they once were. You can no longer rely on defence alone to stop an invasion. Make sure you build enough offensive units to counter-attack enemy units. Bombarding units are handy for weakening an invasion force. Culture is an important part of the game. Build cultural improvements (temples, libraries, etc.) to increase your cultural borders. If you have a lot of culture in your cities, enemy cities may flip to your side on occasion. If you have low culture, be prepared to have your cities flip to your enemies. You can't use roads or rails that belong to other civs. You need to negotiate a 'right of passage' (RoP) agreement with other civs in order to be able to use their roads/rails. This really affects how quickly you can perform an invasion against an enemy. Be warned: if you declare war against another civ while your units are in their territory, it will hurt your reputation and other civs will be more reluctant to sign future RoPs with you. That's all I feel like typing for now. I hope this helps!

immensely helpful! thanks for taking the time! Your reply cleared up 3 mysteries right off the bat.

	16-01-2005 13:17									#17
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 If the ship can load units and the unit is allowed to be loaded on that unit, then just move to the ship as if it were a tile. This is for ships along side. If the ship and unit are in the city, then select the unit and use the load button. As you have already seen curragh do not have transport ability. The civpedia in game tool will give that type of info.

I clicked on the unit and got to its civpedia entry that way. The entry talks at length about various primitive water craft that the unit is basded on and states things like it's movement rate, cost to build and attack and defense and that it is dangerous to use in the open sea but it does not mention anywhere that it cannot transport units.

	16-01-2005 13:31									#18
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i just noticed that the various values of the various terrain types is quite a bit different from what we had in civ 1 and civ 2. Some of my ordinary forest squares in ordinary cities produce trade now, and the difference between those that do and those that do not appears to be the presence of a road. Do roads always just tack a set amount of trade onto the value of any terrain square when built regardless of the terrain type?

	16-01-2005 13:35									#19
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Another thing I've been wondering about is irrigation. one half of my continent has no rivers or lakes and the two halves are divided by 4 hill squares. is it absolutely impossible to irrigate the other half of my continent in such a situation?

	16-01-2005 13:49									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo I clicked on the unit and got to its civpedia entry that way. The entry talks at length about various primitive water craft that the unit is basded on and states things like it's movement rate, cost to build and attack and defense and that it is dangerous to use in the open sea but it does not mention anywhere that it cannot transport units.

They also don't mention that Marines can't transport units the rule is, if it's not mentioned in the Pedia, the unit can't do it. (I'm sure there are exceptions.)

	16-01-2005 14:50									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo i just noticed that the various values of the various terrain types is quite a bit different from what we had in civ 1 and civ 2. Some of my ordinary forest squares in ordinary cities produce trade now, and the difference between those that do and those that do not appears to be the presence of a road. Do roads always just tack a set amount of trade onto the value of any terrain square when built regardless of the terrain type?

Yes, roads add +1 commerce to whatever a tile generates on its own. Railroads, OTOH, only add +1 food or +1 shield, depending on the terrain improvement present on a tile.

Also, tiles next to rivers get +1 commerce.

	16-01-2005 14:52									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo Another thing I've been wondering about is irrigation. one half of my continent has no rivers or lakes and the two halves are divided by 4 hill squares. is it absolutely impossible to irrigate the other half of my continent in such a situation?

I am honestly not sure if C3C changed this or not, but until PtWDG, there was no way to irrigate through hills prior to Electricity.

Electricity allows irrigating any flat land, whether it has a source of fresh water or not.

	16-01-2005 14:58									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo I clicked on the unit and got to its civpedia entry that way. The entry talks at length about various primitive water craft that the unit is basded on and states things like it's movement rate, cost to build and attack and defense and that it is dangerous to use in the open sea but it does not mention anywhere that it cannot transport units.

Look for "Transport Capacity" information (right next to the A/D/M stats) - if it is not mentioned, the unit cannot transport anything.

	16-01-2005 20:00									#24
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A good place to start (much older stuff for vanilla Civ, but still...):

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=59216

	16-01-2005 22:59									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo Another thing I've been wondering about is irrigation. one half of my continent has no rivers or lakes and the two halves are divided by 4 hill squares. is it absolutely impossible to irrigate the other half of my continent in such a situation?

As Vondrack said, you can irrigate without water once you learn Elec. That is a long way off, so in the mean time you will have to bring water to any tiles the hard way. That is irrigate adjacent tiles until you have reach the tile you want.

This is costly in terms of worker turns and often forces you to irrigate tiles that you do not want irrigated.

I am not sure if this was mentioned or if you already know it, but you can chop forrest to add 10 shields to the nearest city. These can be use for normal builds, not wonders. This is useful in the ancient era to speed up granary/barracks/temples.

A big key to the game is workers. Have lots of them and manage them well. Try to not have them waste turns moving over tiles again and again. Gets those roads up to save travel time for all units.

	16-01-2005 23:45									#26
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If a single row of hills is blocking access to irrigate, build a city on the hill and that will allow the irrigation chain to cross.

A double row of hills though is a solid barrier.

	17-01-2005 00:19									#27
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quote: I've been trying to put archers or warriors on to my curragh boats so I can get off my tiny island and look at the huge apparently uninhabited continent just off my coast but no matter what I do I can't seem to end up with a unit of any kind in my curragh!

You can't load units into a Curragh, it's used mainly for exploration. You'll have to wait unti you get Mapmaking and can build the Galley before you can transport units.

	17-01-2005 00:31									#28
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One thing to keep in mind with Civ 3 is that you can't expect to conquer the world with just a handful of units like you could in Civ 2. Be sure you build lots of them before you attack someone, and also make sure your border cities are well defended.

And make sure to check on your Military Advisor on a regular basis. If he tells you that your military is weak compared to another civ, you're running the risk of being attacked. Keep your forces at average of even strong in comparison to your neighbours.

And diplomacy really helps in wars. If you're attacked by someone, get one of his/her neighbours to join a military alliance with you. If you don't, chances are your enemy will enlist the support of that neighbour and they will gang up on you.

	17-01-2005 01:20									#29
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Speaking of wars and combat, in civ3 superior units do not always win a fight. Attack a def of 1 with an attack of 2 and you may lose. In fact it could have a greater gap and still lose, although it is less common as the difference grows.

No more of the build a wall and stick one good unit in the city and forget it ala civ2. Even if your unit is say an infantry vet and they attack with ancient units, they can send enough to finally win at times.

Last edited by vmxa1 on 17-01-2005 at 03:28

	17-01-2005 02:27									#30
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn If a single row of hills is blocking access to irrigate, build a city on the hill and that will allow the irrigation chain to cross. A double row of hills though is a solid barrier.

ouch! if only i'd known. a tiny bit of simple planning adjustment could have removed the problem.