19-01-2005 22:23									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Solomwi The Hydro Plant given by Hoover's won't work until the city gets a factory. I can verify this one, having often built Hoover's before even researching Industrialism. When it does work, though, you're right that it's 50% of the base shield output. Effectively, production doubles with factory+coal/hydro/solar plant, and goes to 2.5xraw shields for factory+nuclear. Just add another 50% to the multiplier when you build a manufacturing plant.

Aah I see, that fact that a Factory is a requirement means the it doesn't function until you have one. I wasn't aware of that.

	19-01-2005 22:24									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Willem Quite often it will build exactly where I would place a city as well.

Except with regard to volcanoes, of course! In my games, there's usually at least one AI-owned "Pompeii"!

Geronimo: In case you didn't already know, to find out the other civ's military makeup as Solomwi suggested, check with your military advisor (F2 or F3, I think). Then, click on the name of the other civ to select the civ you want from a pull-down list.

	19-01-2005 23:03									#93
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I've been waiting all game long for the Incan capital founded right next to 3 Volcanos to get blown up, and it hasn't happened yet.

	20-01-2005 00:31									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Willem Aah I see, that fact that a Factory is a requirement means the it doesn't function until you have one. I wasn't aware of that.

I thought I had said that...

	20-01-2005 00:39									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae I thought I had said that...

Maybe, but you had the numbers wrong.

DOM WAS WRONG! DOM WAS WRONG!

	20-01-2005 03:25									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae I thought I had said that...

It was the way you put it. It sounded like the power plant only boosted the Factory output, when it doesn't. If you didn't have the Factory as a requirement, then it would increase the base production on it's own. It only requires the Factory in order to become active.

	20-01-2005 03:43									#98
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn I've been waiting all game long for the Incan capital founded right next to 3 Volcanos to get blown up, and it hasn't happened yet.

So long as your city is not directly adjacent to a volcano it is safe right?

	20-01-2005 03:53									#99
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Yes.

	20-01-2005 03:53									#100
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay The reason for the higher corruption is to counteract the phenomenon of, "If your civ is twice as big as someone else's, it's twice as powerful as someone else's." In and of itself, the higher corruption is no fun at all. But in the bigger picture, the higher corruption makes it a lot harder to run away with the game by a huge margin. So even though I find it annoying, I think the game is better off with it than it would be without it.

This really is a bizarre way to address the 'problem' of larger civs being proportionately more powerful (logic suggests they would be after all).

A far more believable solution to this 'problem' would have been use the distance-rank system to control empire growth through unhappiness and it would have been even more cool to have a variation on the civ flippin mechanism that could kick in to cause weakly garrisoned unhappy cities to declare independance with a chance of nearby cities flippin to the new civ. That would have virtually unlimited power to control growth of super sized civ while parralleling the centrifugal factors that constrained the size of enormous empires historically.

Insanely high non-historical levels of corruption to contain the huge civs:

modelling historical constraints on the size of empires:

	20-01-2005 03:58									#101
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If I mod my game so that corruption is much much lower than the default setting would it be possible to do so in such a way that it would only effect single player or at least would be almost instantaneous to switch back and forth between the modded and unmodded versions?

	20-01-2005 04:19									#102
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You can create your own mod (a scenario), and play using that... any other scenario or game you would play (e.g., AU games, or PBEM MPs) would have there own settings. IOW, it is not a universal setting on your computer or install of the game.

	20-01-2005 04:23									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus You can create your own mod (a scenario), and play using that... any other scenario or game you would play (e.g., AU games, or PBEM MPs) would have there own settings. IOW, it is not a universal setting on your computer or install of the game.

So i won't be able to play on new random maps with lowered corruption? Only on scenarios with preset maps?

	20-01-2005 04:29									#104
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Geronimo, just create your mod, and don't generate a map in the editor. Then you can play it on new random maps all you like. Heck, after entering the extended cities lists, I renamed mine "conquests.biq" (after backing up the original, of course), so now every time I start a new game normally, I get the changes I made.

	20-01-2005 05:39									#105
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Going back to an earlier question...

Geronimo, does this make you feel better about the prospects for WAR??!!

Attachment: diplo war.jpg
This has been downloaded 78 time(s).

	20-01-2005 06:12									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Going back to an earlier question... Geronimo, does this make you feel better about the prospects for WAR??!!

ouch. actually I prefer the mostly peaceful games. When war breaks out in civ games it seems that most productive activity is severely slowed or even ground to a halt.

	20-01-2005 11:07									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo I wonder why the game makers decided that corruption had to be so much higher in c3 than in the earlier versions of civ? it certainly doesnt add any realism, it takes away realism in fact. And I can't imagine they think it's more fun this way!

As a matter of fact, one of the earliest things Firaxis has verified about Civ4 is that they won't be including 'unfun' elements like corruption. (They obviously feel somehow threatened by alexman and are trying to cut his powerbase out from under him ;-)

Another important change from Civ2 is the lack of technology awarded when a city is captured, along with the prerequisite requirements when trading them. I'd say that cultural borders and proprietary use of roads are what most makes 3 an indispensible step up from 2 though...

	20-01-2005 14:43									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Rommel2D As a matter of fact, one of the earliest things Firaxis has verified about Civ4 is that they won't be including 'unfun' elements like corruption. (They obviously feel somehow threatened by alexman and are trying to cut his powerbase out from under him ;-) Another important change from Civ2 is the lack of technology awarded when a city is captured, along with the prerequisite requirements when trading them. I'd say that cultural borders and proprietary use of roads are what most makes 3 an indispensible step up from 2 though...

well at least the corruption insanity can be toned down with editing. I wonder if corruption editing will tend to change the relative balance of the various government types or if it will leave such balancing exactly as it is with default settings. I'd imagine that some governments are more severely stunted by the default corruption levels than others even though I've only really played despotism, republic, and democracy in my only game to date.

	20-01-2005 16:59									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo well at least the corruption insanity can be toned down with editing. I wonder if corruption editing will tend to change the relative balance of the various government types or if it will leave such balancing exactly as it is with default settings. I'd imagine that some governments are more severely stunted by the default corruption levels than others even though I've only really played despotism, republic, and democracy in my only game to date.

The biggest impact on choices of government would be to seriously devalue Communism. By far the biggest advantage of Communism in C3C is that it dramatically reduces the overall level of corruption in really big civs. Reduce the level of corruption significantly and a lot of that advantage disappears.

Reducing corruption would also tend to eat into the advantage Democracy offers over Republic. Even with the stock rules, most players are reluctant to go through the anarchy involved in switching from Republic to Democracy (except maybe if they are playing religious civs), and reducing the level of corruption would make that situation worse.

Other than those, I think factors independent of corruption play a big enough role in the choice of governments that reducing the level of corruption in the game would not have a significant impact on which government makes the most sense in which situations. But the impact on Communism is a pretty serious issue all by itself.

	20-01-2005 19:25									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo This really is a bizarre way to address the 'problem' of larger civs being proportionately more powerful (logic suggests they would be after all).

They already are more powerful in civ3. It's just that each additional city you conquer adds successively less and less to your empire. The real problem with an unlimited supply of minimally corrupt cities is that each city lost really hurts the loser twice. Once because he no longer gets the benefit from that city's commerce and production and twice when that same commerce and production is added to his enemy. The game is merely trying to find a way to avoid ICS and steamroll type strategies that made Civ2 such a yawner to beat.

quote: A far more believable solution to this 'problem' would have been use the distance-rank system to control empire growth through unhappiness

But once you control unhappiness via entertainers or the luxury slider, you have the same effect as high corruption: reduced commerce and shields.

Everyone curses the civ3 corruption models at first. Over time, though, you come to realize that it makes the game better. You still have the power to deny your rival of his cities with conquest, it's just that you can't take a half dozen cities and depend on the steamroll effect to overwhelm the AI like you could in Civ2.

Besides, C3C offers some relief. Corruption is capped at 90% in all cities. With a courthouse, it's 80%. Add a police station and you're down to 70%. Really hate corruption? Switch to Communism. You'll have less commerce but excellent production. Democracy and Republic offer the other side of the coin: Excellent commerce but only so-so production outside of the core. There are no more super-governments in Civ3. You have to pick and choose.

quote: Insanely high non-historical levels of corruption to contain the huge civs:

Before modern times, remote colonial holdings were notorious for their corruption. The local governor was typically given dicatorial powers to deal with the populace - and you know the old saying about power and absolute power.

	20-01-2005 19:35									#111
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Nathan you are so right about communism and a large empie. I had not realy used it much, but in my current game I decide to check it out during a lull.

Man I more than doubled my net gold and was able to build structures I would never had made in far flung cities. Banks and Stock Ex, making even more money.

It has actually made it so I have more cash than I can use. The big draw back is no rushing with cash. This hurts on those new invasion towns. I now bring extra workers to beef up the pop.

	20-01-2005 22:13									#112
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Yeah, the first time I tried it, I was shocked at how good it was.

-Arrian

	20-01-2005 23:27									#113
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quote: Originally posted by gunkulator But once you control unhappiness via entertainers or the luxury slider, you have the same effect as high corruption: reduced commerce and shields. Everyone curses the civ3 corruption models at first. Over time, though, you come to realize that it makes the game better. You still have the power to deny your rival of his cities with conquest, it's just that you can't take a half dozen cities and depend on the steamroll effect to overwhelm the AI like you could in Civ2.

I guess the difference between my enjoyment of civ games and most other players is that I do not enjoy spoiler tactics. I derive no satisfaction from coverting productive enemy cities or potential city sites into non productive slums of corruption. My satisfaction in playing civ has always been like the enjoyment I would derive from playing sim city. Building up something from nothing. I also enjoyed conquering sickly hostile civs and transforming their worthless continents into thriving industrialised powerhouses of productivity.

Under the latest incarnation of civ's system it would seem I can make a tiny little heart of my home continent an efficient productive area but if I want to spread out from there it will be by converting productive enemy cities into worthless spoiler colonies that I only control to keep them worthless to others.

That doesn't appeal to me at all.

Hopefully a corruption adjustment will allow me to fix that.

	21-01-2005 00:39									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo I guess the difference between my enjoyment of civ games and most other players is that I do not enjoy spoiler tactics. I derive no satisfaction from coverting productive enemy cities or potential city sites into non productive slums of corruption. My satisfaction in playing civ has always been like the enjoyment I would derive from playing sim city. Building up something from nothing. I also enjoyed conquering sickly hostile civs and transforming their worthless continents into thriving industrialised powerhouses of productivity.

I know the feeling. If it weren't for Communism, I would probably practically never play Conquests games for domination because turning cities that are productive under their old owners into unproductive wastelands of corruption under my rule would not be fun for me. But with Communism, I can conquer to my heart's content and rebuild my conquered territories toward new and greater glory. I would strongly suggest that you try using Communism some before you give up on C3C's corruption model.

	21-01-2005 00:53									#115
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay I know the feeling. If it weren't for Communism, I would probably practically never play Conquests games for domination because turning cities that are productive under their old owners into unproductive wastelands of corruption under my rule would not be fun for me. But with Communism, I can conquer to my heart's content and rebuild my conquered territories toward new and greater glory. I would strongly suggest that you try using Communism some before you give up on C3C's corruption model.

That might work but my philosophical distaste for communism is exceeded only by my distaste for fascism. I could no more enjoy playing a commie civ than I could enjoy playing grand theft auto. (not to imply that I think there's anything wrong with players who do enjoy playing repressive civs or GTA for that matter.)

hrmm, maybe I could just rename 'communism' as 'socialism'. I don't find socialism to be morally repugnant, just undesirable.

	21-01-2005 01:06									#116
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Play peaceful games then. You can rule the world with a relatively small empire, that doesn't need to go to war. Since it won't be big, you won't suffer too much corruption either, especially in Republic, or Democracy.

	21-01-2005 01:07									#117
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Another possibility for renaming Communism might be Federal Republic or something along those lines, reflecting a system of government in which most governmental decisions are made below the national level and so cities' position relative to the capital makes no meaningful difference.

	21-01-2005 01:15									#118
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You can make or play a Mod that has governments that use communal corruption.

TAM (The Ancient Med), for instance, has an all-new set of governments. Three of them use communal corruption:

- Thing Law (Communal corruption, moderate unit support, no commerce bonus, 2gpt for units over the limit). Comes early in the game.

- City States (Communal, low unit support, commerce bonus, 3gpt for units over the limit). Comes a little later.

- Empire (think communism with even more free units). Late-game government.

There is more to it than that, but you get the idea.

The main issue is that of balance, because by and large the communal governments blow the others out of the water.

-Arrian

	21-01-2005 01:24									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Modo44 Play peaceful games then. You can rule the world with a relatively small empire, that doesn't need to go to war. Since it won't be big, you won't suffer too much corruption either, especially in Republic, or Democracy.

That only helps to a degree. Weak player civs in the past games used to be vey difficult to keep at peace with the AI neighbors.

Unfortunately if you build enough of your own cities and colonise enough resources the corruption problem becomes pretty much exactly as bad as if you counquered those territories,

	21-01-2005 01:27									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian The main issue is that of balance, because by and large the communal governments blow the others out of the water. -Arrian

which is why i find the idea of communism as the only playable communal government type so unsatisfying.

I hope modding is self explanatory. Time to hit the 300 page manual i suppose.