18-01-2005 10:47									#121
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quote: Because it's entirely based on anonymous sources

Yes, certainly Hersh could've gotten credited sources working in this government saying all this. An Adminstration that we know is intolerant of dissent, that is purging "soft leakers," from the CIA, etc. That's not an unreasonable demand at all.

quote: making outlandish claims

Outlandish? In Shrub's White House?

quote: being reported by a journalist with an ax to grind.

Yes, it's not like Hersh broke a number of important stories during his career, or anything like that. Seriously, how can you say that being written by Sy Hersh diminishes an article's credibility?

	18-01-2005 11:00									#122
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This whole, "OMG they are reporting bad news because they don't like Bush and have an axe to grind!" crap is getting really old.

Maybe they are reporting bad news because IT IS REALLY BAD NEWS.


Does this sh1t just not add up???????????????????

	18-01-2005 11:06									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker This whole, "OMG they are reporting bad news because they don't like Bush!" crap is getting really old.

Actually I'm of the Omg Bush Is Spying On A Hostile Nation! The Horror! school of thought atm. The story reaks of exaggeration and is actually not worth me fixing my precious gives a **** until either a) someone goes on the record or b) provides somesort of written evidence.

	18-01-2005 12:10									#124
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I guess you won't be happy until bombs start falling on Tehran.

Yee haw!

	18-01-2005 12:26									#125
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Regarding the possibility of a plant, those are done with foreign press, not US press. That's why you should never trust non-American news sources for leaking information from the US government. Sometimes you get a plant in the US press from a foreign government, but I assume that Hersh got at least one solid source in the military.

I'm still trying to figure out all of the angles on this story, but we're hearing about it probably due to a turf or policy battle in the bowels of the federal government bureaucracy. These kinds of stories almost always are due to those things.

I haven't read the article, but if it's merely a matter of reconning the place and making target lists, then this is one big "so what?" as far as I'm concerned. Hopefully, they're doing a good job of it in Iran and North Korea.

Last edited by DanS on 18-01-2005 at 12:38

	18-01-2005 12:48									#126
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Francis Gary Powers was a big "so what"?

	18-01-2005 12:51									#127
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Who's Francis Gary Powers? Is the joke on me?

	18-01-2005 12:52									#128
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I think it is.

	18-01-2005 12:54									#129
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Dan, think sleek, fast, high flying planes... that the Soviets were not supposed to have weapons capable of shooting down. Think of ending a summit. Think of show trials. I'm sure you'll get it in one.

	18-01-2005 13:37									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Rummy CIA EU getting Iran to voluntarily disarm.

quote: Ted, does anyone really have any hope that diplomacy will succeed?

Rummy the diplomat

	18-01-2005 13:44									#131
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quote: Originally posted by DanS a turf or policy battle in the bowels of the federal government bureaucracy.

It's not in the "bowels of bureaucracy," it's within the senior leadership of the Pentagon itself. Rumsfeld has already purged those who are nonbelievers, and now is doing the same with the CIA.

Unfortunatley, there are many left in the Pentagon who aren't going to play nice, and these are the people who are giving Hersh the inside information.

This Administration does not tolerate diversity of opinion. It gives orders and expects everyone else to follow.

	18-01-2005 14:40									#132
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd I don't consider britney spears that interesting.

	18-01-2005 14:42									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Broken_Erika if the us does invade, they might get their asses kicked, iran has an ACTUAL army, unlike iraq. In iraq, saddam spent all military money on his palaces,

You don't know what you're talking about. While Iran would present a much larger problem than Iraq as far as an insurgency, its military stands as little chance against the U.S. military than Sadam's did.

	18-01-2005 19:25									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Secondly, the Pentagon is no longer run by the Pentagon. It is run by the White House.

Despite the fact that I don't like the current occupants of the WH, this is the way it should be. Civilian control of the military, not merely civilian oversight. We make the decisions, not them.

	18-01-2005 19:32									#135
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quote: Originally posted by ravagon Selling a story may not be the entirety of his motivation but it sure looks as though he's used a little 'creative licensing' in spicing it up.

BAM!

	18-01-2005 20:04									#136
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I prefer an "Iron Chef" motif, please.

	18-01-2005 20:14									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander You don't know what you're talking about. While Iran would present a much larger problem than Iraq as far as an insurgency, its military stands as little chance against the U.S. military than Sadam's did.

Well, not really, as the insurgency shows.

Saddams army fell so easily not only because of the wide technological disparity, but because the army melted away. The significant casualties suffered by the military against a small force poorly equipped show that troops with high morale, even when badly equiped, can make for a tought fight. Of course, there is also the issue of Iran's terrain, which is not nice and flat like Iraq's, but mountanous.

So, IF the Iranian army stood to fight to the death the war would be a LOT harder and more vicious, specially if the US had to take a large urban area from a trully determined enemy made up of regular forces equipped as regular forces (better body armor, better and heavier weapons, better C&C). Baghdad is a city of 5 million. Tehran is a city of 14 million.

	18-01-2005 20:20									#138
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The Iraqi Army had high morale?

Damn, somebody should've told them back when it could have actually made a difference.

	18-01-2005 20:23									#139
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No, he Iraqi army had very low morale and

quote: Saddams army fell so easily not only because of the wide technological disparity, but because the army melted away.

Was that so difficult to understand?

I will draw a picture next time-maybe that will help.

	18-01-2005 20:23									#140
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Iranians troops have body armour? Why? Doesn't really fit with their culture.

Last time they were at war they used school children as martures to clear paths through the mine fields.

	18-01-2005 20:30									#141
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Was that so difficult to understand?

No, but this bit presented more of a challenge,

quote: Originally posted by GePap The significant casualties suffered by the military against a small force poorly equipped show that troops with high morale, even when badly equiped, can make for a tought fight.

... hence the response. You really should post what you mean to say, it works much better that way.

	18-01-2005 20:54									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie Iranians troops have body armour? Why? Doesn't really fit with their culture. Last time they were at war they used school children as martures to clear paths through the mine fields.

Last time they did so it was right after a revolution that decimated their standing army, followed by a quick foreign attack at the same time their main arms supplier from before cut them off.

	18-01-2005 20:56									#143
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quote: Originally posted by Winston No, but this bit presented more of a challenge, ... hence the response. You really should post what you mean to say, it works much better that way.

If you noted, the begins of my post was:

quote: Well, not really, as the insurgency shows.

The insurgents are the small, poorly equipped force, and the US lost more men taking Fallujah back from them than any single battle against Saddam's army during our campaign.

	18-01-2005 21:02									#144
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Ah, I can't find anything on which to disagree with you then.

But I've a feeling this strange situation will soon be corrected.

	18-01-2005 21:06									#145
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It should be the CIA doing this, but other than that, I'm not too upset about it. Given that Iran shows no signs of slowing it's quest for nukes, and the West's determination not to let them have them, this was to be expected.

	18-01-2005 21:08									#146
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Last time they did so it was right after a revolution that decimated their standing army, followed by a quick foreign attack at the same time their main arms supplier from before cut them off.

I still doubt they even have helmets. Better weapons, surely, but not better body armour. It's not their culture.

	18-01-2005 21:10									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie I still doubt they even have helmets. Better weapons, surely, but not better body armour. It's not their culture.

Yeah, but they have plenty of fanatics, still. I don't doubt we'd knock them over relatively quickly. We'd only be able to do it by abandoning all our other combat committments though.

	18-01-2005 21:43									#148
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quote: It's not in the "bowels of bureaucracy," it's within the senior leadership of the Pentagon itself. Rumsfeld has already purged those who are nonbelievers, and now is doing the same with the CIA.

As I recall, moving some recon from CIA to Defense has been discussed for a while and was a relatively amicable discussion, even during Tenet. This discussion was covered by the WaPo, at least. Why would the CIA leak this information, when the discussion has already been vetted publicly and CIA has been open to the move, although maybe not convinced of the wisdom of the move entirely?

Maybe this story is due to the possibility that some in Defense don't want the job. I don't know why this would be so.

	18-01-2005 21:45									#149
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quote: Dan, think sleek, fast, high flying planes... that the Soviets were not supposed to have weapons capable of shooting down. Think of ending a summit. Think of show trials. I'm sure you'll get it in one.

Thanks.

	18-01-2005 21:47									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie I still doubt they even have helmets. Better weapons, surely, but not better body armour. It's not their culture.

What BS.

The regular army most certainly has helmets, and whatever body armor they decide to buy. I am sure the large paramilitary forces are underequipped and don't, but do not mistake the Regular army of several hundred thousand to the paramilitary forces of several hundred thousands.