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Comrade Tassadar
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and so does Che! ZOMGG!!5
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Solomwi
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Don King of the Apolyton HLA Movement
Dec 2002
time: 23:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Pekka
OK let's look at the analogue again, might be a bad example but I explore it more, the cop analogue.
Now, the cop shoots the baddie. You say he is partially responsible where I say the baddie brought it upon himself. You might say, yeah, those two don't really block each other. So I ask you, was it justified that the cop shoot the killer, in order to a)do his job (protect the citizens) and b) to save himself in a do or die situation he did not create himself? Was it justified? |
YES, it was ABSOLUTELY justified, just like the position of the Finnish troops was justified. And regardless of how responsible you hold the criminal for his own death, the cop still pulled the trigger, and thus is still the one who killed the criminal. Likewise, even though Finland was justified in being at war, and justified in holding the ground they were holding, the Finnish troops still were, partially, the ones starving Leningrad. Nobody in this thread is saying that Finland should have done anything different.
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Solomwi
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Don King of the Apolyton HLA Movement
Dec 2002
time: 23:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor
Bah, I can blame Bush.
For example, I have been sitting on 'Poly for the last 3 hours instead of working on my uni paper. It's obviously Bush's fault   |
Ahhh, an ancillary prong to make it a 100% complete solution.
quote:
(BTW, when I saw the thread had grown so much in the night, I was WTF?! I now understand why: the thread has now patently nothing to do with the topic) |
Exactly. 
Pekka, you moved in, then sat on your butts, on top of an avenue of relief for Leningrad. I, for one, salute you for it, just like I salute the cop for killing the baddie, but that, like whether or not you were justified or the tactical and strategic advantages of the position, is irrelevant to the simple question of whether or not you did it.
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Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:30
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No. You are oversimplifying it. Either you explain HOW we helped starving, and I went over the fact that we were in the defensive zone preparing to battle the major offensive, you know what those 'support lines' where used before we got it ourselves? For war against us. That's right. Support lines supplying our enemy to kill us. So, you suggest we don't do anything about it? It has absoutely nothing to do with Leningrad. The line that had to do and had to do a lot, we left it alone.
And other than that, it was inactive front until the major offensive started.
So, if you still claim that because we were there sitting on the positions and watching it happen, that we have partial responsibility over it, then every country has responsiblity for not helping SU too, every country has a responsibility for not fighting Japan earlier, every country is responsible for EVERYTHING they don't make better.
There's no responsibility what so ever, there's no proof of anything to it, there's no motivation to it, there's no reasonable what ever to it, if you hold the tree responsible if you drive into it yourself, fine, but that's pretty drastic.
If the action itself was justified, being apart cause from the siege and what not, then there is no responsibility, unless extra action was taken to hinder someone else, which it wasn't. We did the minimum possible to secure ourselves for the coming major offensive.
Of course it suits some people to come and whine about 'you starve people' 'look me i'm a little girl', what ever.
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Solomwi
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Don King of the Apolyton HLA Movement
Dec 2002
time: 23:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Pekka
No. You are oversimplifying it. Either you explain HOW we helped starving, and I went over the fact that we were in the defensive zone preparing to battle the major offensive, you know what those 'support lines' where used before we got it ourselves? For war against us. That's right. Support lines supplying our enemy to kill us. So, you suggest we don't do anything about it?
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This is exactly what I'm NOT suggesting. Nobody, outside of you and laurentius, was debating the morality of Finnish actions. As I said, I perfectly understand why you were where you were, and don't think you should have done anything differently. Finland's reasons for holding the ground outweighed the plight of Leningrad, at least in the Finnish view, which is what counts in that situation. I wholeheartedly agree with you there.
If I park my car in an alley that is one of, say, three outlets for a street, and somebody else blocks the other two, I have helped cut off that street. It doesn't matter that I parked there for an unrelated, and very good, reason, and it doesn't necessarily follow that I should have moved my car, just because the street was cut off. Hell, maybe there's a fugitive on the street and my blocking it, however inadvertently, helps bring him to justice.
That's all. Nobody's condemning the Finns for starving Leningrad, just saying you helped it to happen through your troop positions, which even you have admitted to.
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