21-01-2005 11:12									#241
	Inflate your Upload Space

No, our location doesn't show it at all. You can't show it How's that taste? Bitter? I bet!

You see, you're claiming we starved the place. I'm claiming we were close to the place, no ROoskies passed our zones (wow surprise there), and that Stalin brought it upon himself by engaging into us and it is entirely his own fault. This is what I'm saying.

You're saying.. NO! bbaabaabaa NO!! I HAVE tuh FACTRS! **** you don't have any facts at all. You don't even know anything about continuation war. Go praise your views to some other commies, I'm sure they do agree.

	21-01-2005 11:14									#242
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Pekka No, our location doesn't show it at all. You can't show it How's that taste? Bitter? I bet! You see, you're claiming we starved the place. I'm claiming we were close to the place, no ROoskies passed our zones (wow surprise there), and that Stalin brought it upon himself by engaging into us and it is entirely his own fault. This is what I'm saying. You're saying.. NO! bbaabaabaa NO!! I HAVE tuh FACTRS! **** you don't have any facts at all. You don't even know anything about continuation war. Go praise your views to some other commies, I'm sure they do agree.

	21-01-2005 11:18									#243
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

You know I'm right though. Only thing you have 'showed' is that we were there. Duh?!?! And that's where your facts END. Wow, excuse me mister professor. That doesn't even count as amateur night for the subject.

You disagree that Stalin brought it upon himself and that the war itself and everything to it is his fault, excluding some possible individual deeds and summary executions and that type of stuff?

So you are basically defending Stalin on his position. put on as many smilies as you can, but there's a fact for you, unless you accept Stalin to be the faulty one, 100%. If not, then please show how it was our fault. If you can't come up with facts, stfu please.

	21-01-2005 11:29									#245
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

What ever. You can laugh all you want. But the truth is, you don't qualify as any kind of expert or even novise in this subject. You have provided one fact, and you make your own conclusion derived from that fact. It's ok. You can feel that way. I remind you, I have only provided facts, not conclusions. You haven't refuted not single one of those facts. Well, it would be impossible. So laugh all you want. That's the most you can do on this subject, trying to portray yourself in imaginairy position. You are simply doing cause effect interpretation, that's all, and you claim it to be a fact. And for the record, you have nto shown any proof as of yet, except our location, to your claim. Not a single fact have you been able to come up with. Not a single one. My claims are at least backed up by facts. You simply take some pressure of Stalin's back. Figures.

	21-01-2005 11:34									#247
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Consider yourself lost. You can't come up with anything else.
You don't even pay the respect to answer my questions, so that's it for me. Go read a book.

	21-01-2005 11:41									#248
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I gave up on you a long time ago, Pekka. Once it became clear that no amount of reasoning, evidence, etc. was gonna get through to you. Since then I've only been trolling you, and very successfully too, I might add. Everyone else can see what I'm saying clearly, and agrees that it makes sense. Only you, with your wounded nationalistic pride, can't bring yourself to admit it. So I just laugh at you.

	21-01-2005 11:50									#249
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Your only evidence is our location. Your reasoning is 'come on, but it's evident!'. I have also provided facts. We didn't cut the most important line. It wasn't a question of preference, we refused to do it. That's a fact. YOu of course feel this is irrelevant.

That's all you are saying. You were close to Leningrad. SU troops could have used those lands for support lines. I'm saying too ****ing bad. Stalin brought this situation to himself. Had he not being the way he was, we wouldn't have been there in the first place.

Furthermore we didn't cut the lines outside that zone. It's not irrelevant, even if you say so. It is very much relevant.

Your position is the most easy to defend, and you're not going the extra mile to defend it. You're just accusing. Passing judgements. And you don't even have any idea about the whole conflict. And then only thing you do is disrespect me after that.

If you want to prove your claims, you will coem up with clear plans, or even clear suggestions that it was in our interest to siege Leningrad. You provide our goal to do that, and then why it would make sense to us.

And then you explain why that position was not Stalin's fault.

Unless you can convinsingly do that, you're nothing but hot air. And calling me wounded up nationalistic isn't helping any.

So unless you can actually PROVE your claims, you can talk all you want about 'facts' you have established, but your methods of making facts is only recognized in renessaince era where someone said this is how it is, then it it was. Either stop wasting my time, or put some effort too.

	21-01-2005 11:53									#250
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Pekka Your only evidence is our location. Your reasoning is 'come on, but it's evident!'. I have also provided facts. We didn't cut the most important line.

So you only cut off 90%, instead of 100%. Gosh, I guess you're totally right Pekaa! So I guess you did do anything since only 670,000 people starved to death, instead of all of them.

	21-01-2005 11:57									#251
	Full PM-box? Change here!

No, didn't I just go extensively how these lines were support lines against us? They don't count. And if that comes as a tiebreaker, the fact that we didn't take out the road of life swings it in our favour.

	21-01-2005 11:59									#252
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Exactly. YOu don't even consider this .. how disrespectful can you get? You are on the verge of becoming disgusting. You don't know anything about how the 'not cutting the road of life' came about and all the facts behind it.

You are still not showing anything at all, except oru location, which was because Stalin attacked. I'ms aying, it is Stalins fault. YOu don't agree. That is weird.

Do you blame IBM for selling punch card to Nazis, because that certainly contributes at least half % to that, because they'd be more effective.

	21-01-2005 12:03									#253
	Increase Your PM Length

Okay, one last time. Let's see if your brain can handle this. I know it's futile, but I'm still having fun.

There are four directions from which food can entire Leningrad: North around Lake Ladoga, South, East over Lake Ladoga, and West from the Guld of Finland. The Germans cut off the South, the Finns cut off the North, and the Germans and Finns cooperated to cut of the West. Only the Eastern route was left open, but it wasn't sufficient to allow enough food in to feed all the people of Leningrad, so 670,000 of them starved to death.

Now, for some reason, you claim that you didn't cut off the Northern or Western routes, and that because you didn't cut off the Southern and Eastern routes, you therefore didn't starve anyone, even though you supposedly could have cut off the Eastern route, which even the far superior German army could not do.

Now, anyone with at least half a brain can understand that if you cut off the Northern route you have participated in cutting off the city, and thus have helped to cause it to starve.

If you can't understand this, you are completely hopeless.

	21-01-2005 12:07									#254
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I haven't denied our location. And that's the only fact you seem to be having. Do you think we were there by force or because we wanted to be there. We were there against our will. Stalin forced us to come there and defend. Now, do you agree? I won't put many questions at a time because you seem to be not answering my questions.

	21-01-2005 12:08									#255
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Pekka Exactly. YOu don't even consider this .. how disrespectful can you get?

Just because you didn't completely cut off Leningrad, it doesn't mean you didn't cut it off. If the city needed, say, 500,000 tonnes of food, and as a result of your actions, only 250,000 were able to get through, that doesn't mean that you didn't starve the city.

quote: You are still not showing anything at all, except oru location, which was because Stalin attacked. I'ms aying, it is Stalins fault.

No, I'm not saying anything about anyone's fault. I don't care who's fault it was. That's not part of my point. You seem to feel that's important. Go ahead. It doesn't change what your country did.

quote: Do you blame IBM for selling punch card to Nazis,

Yes.

	21-01-2005 12:09									#256
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Pekka Do you think we were there by force or because we wanted to be there.

I don't care. It's irrelevent to the fact of whether or not they were there. I'm not discussing the reason they were there, merely the fact that they were there.

	21-01-2005 12:10									#257
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Ah ok. So you're not saying whose fault is what. Ok that seems to have been the lock.

OK then we can proceed. If it wasn't our fault, then how is it in our responsibility?

	21-01-2005 12:12									#258
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Pekka Ah ok. So you're not saying whose fault is what. Ok that seems to have been the lock.

I don't know why it was a lock, since I repeated it multiple times.

quote: If it wasn't our fault, then how is it in our responsibility?

Who's talking about responsibility? Not me. I stated a simple fact, the Finns, along with the Germans, cut off Leningrad, and as a reult, 670,000 people died of starvation.

If we're talking fault, I'd say fault lies, ultimately, with the Nazis, since it was their threat that prompted Stalin to attack Finland in both the Winter War and the Continuation War (the former because the Soviets were afraid the Nazis might use Finland as a base and the later because the Nazis did use Finland as a base). The Soviets had no legitimate cause to attack you the first time, but they did have a legitimate cause to attack you the second time, though it was stupid to do so when they couldn't handle you.

	21-01-2005 12:16									#259
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Ah.. I thought you were saying it was our responsibility. Why didn't you say you are not claiming it? I said several times, that you are saying our troops are partially held responsible for it. This was my main problem. Why didn't you say against this?

Now, if it wasn't our responsibility, then it wasn't our fault, yes? Pretty much the same thing in this case.

Now, since this is the case, then why do you keep on saying Finns starved Leningrad? if you are not responsible or at fault, then how the hell do you do it, since our interests were different. The fact that some lines went through our zones really don't count us active sieging, because those would have been used and as been used against us. So this is why it wasn't our fault that they were not able to use them, since the whole mess started us being invaded.

	21-01-2005 12:18									#260
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

" but they did have a legitimate cause to attack you the second time, though it was stupid to do so when they couldn't handle you."

Legit, it was continuation from the first one. Nazis or no Nazis, SU would have attacked. They just didn't bother to attack Nazis in here. Kind of.. beats the purpose now doesn't it.

	21-01-2005 12:22									#261
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Pekka Ah.. I thought you were saying it was our responsibility. Why didn't you say you are not claiming it? I said several times, that you are saying our troops are partially held responsible for it. This was my main problem. Why didn't you say against this?

Because I kept telling you, oever and over again, that wasn't part of my argument. I can't help it if you're blind. The reason why I say the Finns starved the city is because, regardless of where the ultimate blaim lies, your troops did the deed.

	21-01-2005 12:25									#262
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

And that's where I differ. I look the responsibility. I blame Stalin and Hitler for that mess. I say Stalin was responsible for our troops being where they were. BEcause that was our only option and we were forced to be there. It was a strategic f up, made by Stalin. And thus, STALIN starved Leningrad together with Hitler.

	21-01-2005 12:26									#263
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Pekka " but they did have a legitimate cause to attack you the second time, though it was stupid to do so when they couldn't handle you." Legit, it was continuation from the first one. Nazis or no Nazis, SU would have attacked. They just didn't bother to attack Nazis in here. Kind of.. beats the purpose now doesn't it.

Well, it's nice to have that kind of hindsight, but considering how much pressure the Soviets were under in '41 and '42, it's exceedingly unlikely to be true. If they could have been assured of a secure northern front, I'm sure they would have pulled troops off your border in order to move them to Leningrad and/or Moscow. Instead that had to guard that long, and very important coridor, since it was their lifeline from Murmansk. Course, we can't know one way or the other. It's also possible that the Soviets would have invaded Lapland to strike into Sweden to cut off Germany's iron supplies.

	21-01-2005 12:35									#264
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Well it's anyones guess but Stalin didn't take our word. We never threatened to attack SU. We didn't say we will let Hitler use our lands. What we said is no one uses our lands for nothing. Stalin didn't trust this. Either we could let them in, under pressure, or Nazis could take it by force. Do you think this kind of thinking would have changed after the Winter War? Why woudl he change his mind?

Well anyway this wasn't the debate.

Anyway, I'm not denying the fact that we were close Leningrad. I deny, that it was the fault of our troops that we were there. I deny that it was someone elses fault than Stalin's. And that being so, I say it was Stalin who starved Leningrad.

If not, then why don't you add other countries who have had indirect effect to the siege of Leningrad? Why don't you say IBM is also part of the siege of Leningrad?

SU was under pressure, but Stalin didn't have any problems deviding Europe with Hitler before it all went to crappers. I'm not sorry that his plans failed. Unfortunately SU citizens paid the price for Stalin's mistakes and crazyness. His doubts were legit. His actions weren't.

	21-01-2005 14:05									#265
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I have a hard time placing Stalin

for one thing, he beat the nazies from a worse position

but from another, he was a monster from the darkages as far as his totalitarrianism is conserned

he was the epitomy of the wrong direction of russian communism, and for that I hate him

but I have to give hima llittle respect for beating the nazis

so I understand having a statue of him, but I thnk that the true story should be told, of his evil and authoritarinism

Jon Miller

	22-01-2005 04:32									#266
	Suffering from ads?

ta daa!

	22-01-2005 04:35									#267
	Increase Your PM Length

stalin
nazis
finland

case closed

	24-01-2005 13:20									#268
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Gangerolf

	24-01-2005 13:37									#269
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara From Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin#Death_toll quote: It is generally agreed by historians that if famines, prison and labour camp mortality, and state terrorism (deportations and political purges) are taken into account, Stalin and his colleagues were directly or indirectly responsible for the deaths of millions. How many millions died under Stalin is greatly disputed. Although no official figures have been released by the Soviet or Russian governments, most estimates put the figure between 8 and 20 million. Comparison of the 1926-39 census results suggests 5-10 million deaths in excess of what would be normal in the period, mostly through famine in 1931-34. The 1926 census shows the population of the Soviet Union at 147 million while the 1939 census at 162 million. (Another census from 1937 is known as the "wrecker's census"; its figures were suppressed.) The highest death estimates are 50 million from the 1920s to 1950s, but they are probably greatly exaggerated. As you you, Fez, you support capitalism, which is responsible for the deaths of more then ten million people every year. In any given decade, your favored economic system kills more than one hundred million people from war, starvation, pollution, inadequate health care, etc., all problems caused by or allowed to happen because of, the profit motive. Even if I was a Stalinist and supported everything Stalin did, I'd still have far less blood on my hands than you.

I have to say that your defence of Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and friends is entertaining.

Who was it who taught you the tactic of the big lie?

	24-01-2005 13:41									#270
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara That's not really true. The Finns didn't bombard Leningrad, but they took part in the seige simply by cutting it off. You don't have to assault or bomb a city to lay siege. You can simply starve it into submission.

They could have cut the lake road in a heartbeat.