20-01-2005 22:37									#1
	AAR has been started Enter the AD-FREE zone

Just so you know (not many will check the UN anymore), an AAR is forming here.

It's always nice to participate in these, but if you plan on posting, it might be best to first get approval here. Already, some of the posts drip with arrogance. As was expected, everyone thinks he was in his right, and considers the other teams as aggressive invaders.

I find it very interesting to see all posts focusing on diplo issues, not on game issues. GCA's comment on 'not a food bonus in sight' is outright funny seeing as we started in the middle of the jungle

DeepO

	21-01-2005 03:08									#2
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I jotted down some notes a couple of days ago, but couldnt be bothered posting them at the UN. (or here)

quote: An Apolyton perspective CDG made Apolyton nervous. With our horrific starting position (Jungle) we knew we had to concentrate on early land improvements. Having neighbours with immortals running around was not making us happy. The early chats were not our FAM’s finest hour….a little heavy handed. We believe GCA & CDG had an early alliance against the two bigger teams CFC & APO. Then CFC & GCA started to bang heads. The APO FAM did everything they could to diffuse the situation, but failed. GCA/CFC were too aggressive, and a war broke out between them. While GCA was hammering CFC, Apolyton began war planning…probably against CDG. APO had a non-aggression pact with GCA, which would give us a reasonably free hand against CDG. But then the world turned around, and CDG attacked GCA. APO thought GCA would be destroyed… they had immortals, and GCA would be fighting a war on two fronts. So APO began to mobilise as well. The plan was simple. GCA had thumped and weakened CFC CDG would thump and virtually destroy GCA Then APO would come over top, and thump CDG. But then, GCA was able to not only hold CFC, but also fight and destroy CDG. APO, who had already invested resources to wage war, was then offered the remaining CDG cities. And our target shifted from CDG to GCA. APO broke the Non Aggression Pact, and attacked GCA.

This is from my view.
You are all welcome to expand on the above...or not use it at all.

	21-01-2005 03:17									#3
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That's surprisingly close to what I am able to recall, H_E...

	21-01-2005 03:35									#4
	Re: AAR has been started Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by DeepO Just so you know (not many will check the UN anymore), an AAR is forming here.

So far, it's surprisingly civil, I'd say... it's interesting how much of what various teams "figured out" despite being told otherwise was true...

	21-01-2005 03:44									#5
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Definitely intriguing.

I posted a short message. I'll leave any details to people in here who want to formulate something up.

	21-01-2005 06:09									#6
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Maybe there should be a bit about us not wanting to start our GA too early, and that while the other teams had focused on getting as much military out as possible, we felt we needed to get only protection, while being able to build lots of small cities to offset our starting position. I can't recall we were overly offensive in the beginning, only when our first target failed we scrambled to get into the war too.

As to our 'treachery', or breaking the NAP, perhaps it would be best to explain a bit more on why we had to, or at least a majority of us felt we had to. So far, it sounds like the decission was made rapidly, as an obvious thing to do. As I recall, it was not that easy to reach consensus. This not to proof we were on moral high ground, but that we too struggled with the decision...

DeepO

	21-01-2005 08:40									#7
	Increase Your PM Length

We had a plan for war from around turn 60, DeepO. vondrack worked up specifics and wrote it out after getting myself and Dubya to agree in principle to present the team with a plan for military action. The thread should be called ApStP68 or something like that. It called for a build up of forces and an attack on CDG around t100 or 110 (IIRC).

In the meantime GCA hammered CDG. Our focus then naturally shifted to GCA as a target. There was never any doubt among the leadership, although there most certainly was a lot of discussion, as there should have been. What it boiled down to is that we knew there was not enough room on this land mass for more than two competitive civs. Some argued we should have made it one, just ourselves. Others argued we needed at least one (CFC) to help with research and to join in on attacks against the other landmass.

	21-01-2005 09:06									#8
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Incidently, Talar from GCA has posted an olive branch in the 'We have a winner thread'. It might be nice if one of our leaders picked it up and acknowledged him/her.

	21-01-2005 09:13									#9
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Apologies. It was AltSp61, turn 61 being an important pivot point.

The plan and its ratification can be seen here:
http://www.apolyton.net/forums/show...&threadid=87743

quote: Our starting location did/does not allow for a quick, early military buildup, followed by a surprise rush. In addition, our early UU is less than optimal for winning wars - it's better suited for not losing wars. Thus, our only reasonable choice is to win the war by overwhelming military superiority, achieved through the economic superiority. We shall outnumber our enemy to such an extent that they will be unable to hold their ground. Technical superiority would be welcome, but should not be necessary.

T'was a good plan, as this is what happened to GCA. No matter how lucky they got our numbers swept them away when and where they chose to make stands. What actually happened is that our numbers maneuvered them out of their empire. They disbanded most of it.

	21-01-2005 10:05									#10
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That document should be posted in the UN.



Together with a well written early game AAR.

	21-01-2005 15:02									#11
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nye, it is more or less as I remembered (I was lurking at the time, and voted in that thread). Am I wrong in thinking that the other teams so far have been talking about events before turn 100? Before turn 61, we were focused on expansion and not on war, right? It's only at this point we shifted attention.

BTW, the log rush has made is really cool to see at this point.

DeepO

	21-01-2005 15:48									#12
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Apologies. It was AltSp61, turn 61 being an important pivot point.

Ahhhh yes.. THAT. I remember that document and some of the discussion beforehand between vonD, nye and I.

	21-01-2005 16:06									#13
	Inflate your Upload Space

Posted at the UN:

quote: Indeed, congratulations to GWT for a very well played game. Personally I think we (Apolyton) did insanely well considering our all jungle start, but even given that we were at LEAST matched by GWT, with perhaps a tiny bit of luck thrown in There have been many heated discussions and outright flames perhaps, at times, but I know that the Apolyton team and all its members have no issue with anyone who participated in this game according to the rules and fairplay spirit on which we founded it. It may interest people to know that before our attempted invasion, one of the largest debates in the history of the Apolyton team was on whether to attack Ruhrpott alone, or to attack it as well as GWT's Colossus city (forget the name). The side I was on lost that poll, and thus we moved only towards Ruhr. As to what could have happened had we TWO landing sites we will never know. We are preparing an AAR of sorts, and hope to have that up sometime. The basic points are already assembled.

	23-01-2005 13:11									#14
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Good job, Dubya.

	25-01-2005 04:41									#15
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Dubya, you forgot to mention that the Parthemunde strike force would have arrived 4 turns later...

	25-01-2005 14:55									#16
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speaking of Parthe, this is bongo replying to my comment (the first quote)

quote: quote: As one of the persons who was AGAINST attacking Parthemunde, I'd just like to point out that the landing force against Parthe would have landed about 4 turns after the landing at Ruhrpott. That was the main reason the plan narrowly lost the voting and all knights sent against Ruhr instead (only 2-3 caravels were planned against Parthe) since it was deemed that surprise would be lost. Surprise was indeed lost Almost all Ansars(50?) had returned to the north by then. Most where close to Ruhrpott but I think some(10?) was hanging aroung webringen, just in case. If you got to navigation earlier, while CGN still had forces and territory left, the Ruhrpott-landing may have made a difference.

* Master Zen now does the "I TOLD YOU SO" dance...

	26-01-2005 01:41									#17
	Remove this text

Surprise was lost "only" when they spotted our fleet. Until then they had kept the Ansars in a stack somewheer in the middle of the continent so that they could reach any area in a certain amount of turns.

If they had not spotted the fleet we would have had a succesful Ruhpott strike and it's entirely possible they would have over reacted to that invasion and left Parth open.

	27-01-2005 06:41									#18
	Got spare money?

If anybody is writing an AAR, this thread i did more than a year ago on GCA may be useful.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=97359

	30-01-2005 10:53									#19
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Is anyone going to come over and help out with the C3C ISDG? We only have one active minister at this point.

	02-02-2005 02:44									#20
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True. The C3CDG team could really use more of the brilliant analysis and dedication that made this team a success. Right now things are on cruise control, as we're in a peacetime building mode, but we welcome a little shake-up and some bright, new ideas to help make us better, and to further Apolyton's reputation as an excellent Civ-playing site.

--Togas