25-01-2005 04:20									#1
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Not yet, but we can hope!

quote: Rumsfeld cancels trip after accusations US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld cancelled a planned visit to Germany after a US human rights organisation asked German authorities to prosecute him for war crimes, Deutsche Presse-Agentur (dpa) has learned. Rumsfeld has informed the German government via the US embassy that he will not take part in the Munich Security Conference in February, conference head Horst Teltschik told dpa on Thursday. The New York-based Centre for Constitutional Rights filed a complaint in December with the Federal German Prosecutor's Office against Rumsfeld accusing him of war crimes and torture in connection with detainee abuses at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison. Rumsfeld made it known immediately after the complaint was filed that he would not attend the Munich conference unless Germany quashed the legal action. The organisation alleges violations of German legislation, which outlaws war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide independent of the place of crime or origin of the accused. The prosecutor's office in Karlsruhe reportedly is examining the roughly 170-page complaint to see whether an investigation is warranted. The Centre for Constitutional Rights said it and four Iraqis allegedly tortured in US custody filed a complaint with German authorities against Rumsfeld, former CIA director George Tenet and eight other senior military and civilian officials over abuses at Abu Ghraib and elsewhere in Iraq. The organisation said it had turned to German prosecutors "as a court of last resort" because the US government "is unwilling to open an independent investigation" and had "refused to join the International Criminal Court".

	25-01-2005 10:53									#2
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The people in charge knowingly requested to waive the Geneva Conventions, the people in charge should be held accountable for their actions.

	25-01-2005 11:16									#3
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Nothing will happen to either him or Bush as long as they are in office but it will be interesting to see if they are jailed after they leave office.

Last edited by Oerdin on 05-02-2005 at 10:42

	25-01-2005 11:57									#4
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Why expect that? Nixon and Kissinger managed to avoid it and they were worse.

	25-01-2005 12:12									#5
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Jeb gets elected 2008, pardons his brother and all his boys.

	25-01-2005 12:32									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker The people in charge knowingly requested to waive the Geneva Conventions, the people in charge should be held accountable for their actions.

What do the Geneva Conventions have to do with any of this?

	25-01-2005 12:48									#7
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double

	25-01-2005 12:52									#8
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.

Attachment: torture.jpg
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	25-01-2005 14:09									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker .

I thought the charges being considered in Germany had to do with Iraq, ie not Al Qaueda and not the Taliban?

	25-01-2005 14:10									#10
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Torture planes, Abu Gharib, Guantanamo, those all fell from the same tree.

	25-01-2005 15:03									#11
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This could be a real problem for Bush Administration II.

Under the Napoleonic system, magistrates act independently as investigators and prosecutors- look at what has happened to Pinochet.

This means human right groups could get warrants issued for Bush, Cheney, Rice and Rumsfeld which would restrict their ability to travel internationally.

There are a number of heads of state cannot travel to certain states because of arrest warrants.

It would be an amazing development if US Administration figures could not travel but it is possible.

	25-01-2005 18:02									#12
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quote: This could be a real problem for Bush Administration II. Under the Napoleonic system, magistrates act independently as investigators and prosecutors- look at what has happened to Pinochet. This means human right groups could get warrants issued for Bush, Cheney, Rice and Rumsfeld which would restrict their ability to travel internationally. There are a number of heads of state cannot travel to certain states because of arrest warrants. It would be an amazing development if US Administration figures could not travel but it is possible.

Not quite as amazing as what would happen to said states in retaliation.

	25-01-2005 18:12									#13
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I don't really see why he canceled the trip given that even if a warrant were issued, he has immunity from prosecution under international law while in office and could not be arrested. This is without even going into the dubious merrits of the case.

	25-01-2005 18:38									#14
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True, god knows there woudln't be a foriegn diplomat in the US if we made them pay parking tickets.

	25-01-2005 19:23									#15
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quote: Not quite as amazing as what would happen to said states in retaliation.

You mean you'd bring over your soldiers so we could take pot shots at them.

Goody...

	25-01-2005 19:37									#16
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That I have never undestood. Sure, if diplomat commits serious crime, it is good to have him brought to justice in his own country. I mean, in some countries, he could be flogged to death, if left to the mercy of the foreign law.

But parking tickets? Why should diplomat's not respect the laws that touch them in everyday life? I mean they should, but why should they not be held accountable, if they fail to obey even the simplest laws of the host country, maybe unintentionally, but often from sheer arrogance? You may be posted there for awhile, you might bother to check if 100KM/H is allowed speed on the main street during business hours.

	25-01-2005 19:51									#17
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What a troll thread.. more leftism nonsense. Down with Germany. Hope they have a bad year economically. The German government should be severely punished for even listening to these wacky stupid groups.

	25-01-2005 20:23									#18
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Free society is *****, ain't it? Something ought to be done to it.

	25-01-2005 20:27									#19
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I don't really see why he canceled the trip given that even if a warrant were issued, he has immunity from prosecution under international law while in office and could not be arrested.

I thought that only applied to diplomats. As the case with Pinochet showed, not all officers of a government have immunity, as he was a permanent memeber of the Chilean Senate at the time he was detained. Rumsfield isn't a diplomat.

	25-01-2005 20:32									#20
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No matter which party is in power, the American public would be outraged over trying a US President(or sec. of defense), and that prosecuting country could count on ruined relations with the US.

	25-01-2005 20:35									#21
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I think GOPers would dance with glee if Clinton were arrainged somewhere.

	25-01-2005 20:37									#22
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A minority would, just as a minority would dance with glee if Bush were arraigned. But most Americans would be outraged over something like that.

	25-01-2005 20:44									#23
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bah, nothing will happen...

and as Agathon said, Nixon and Kissinger were worse, and they never got anything...

	25-01-2005 20:53									#24
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I think this is the tip of the iceberg. I think we'll see a lot more of this bullshit including investigations by the international court.

	25-01-2005 20:58									#25
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara --- Rumsfield isn't a diplomat.

Yes, he is!

	25-01-2005 21:08									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Sava bah, nothing will happen... and as Agathon said, Nixon and Kissinger were worse, and they never got anything...

Actually, Kissinger can't go to France anymore.

	25-01-2005 21:08									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie Yes, he is!

That was 20 years ago.

	26-01-2005 03:10									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos Not quite as amazing as what would happen to said states in retaliation.

Retaliate against whom? The judges who issue the warrants are independent of the government.

Also the Vienna Convention does not extend immunity from criminal prosecution. Diplomatic immunity does not apply - look at what happened to Pinochet. He had diplomatic immunity but the British Government was still bound to hold him until extradition proceedings were heard by British courts. This could easily happen to Rumsfeld if warrants are issued.

The man is widely regarded internationally as a war criminal, no better than Milosovic, this could be the end of him.

	26-01-2005 03:16									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi A minority would, just as a minority would dance with glee if Bush were arraigned. But most Americans would be outraged over something like that.

But thats the point.Who cares what you think. In many countries the courts have this power. The governments could be friendly but the courts could be hostile. The German government is friendly to the US but could not stop a court from issuing a warrant. Even if not acted upon the embarrassment would be great.

	26-01-2005 03:26									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse The man is widely regarded internationally as a war criminal, no better than Milosovic, this could be the end of him.

Blah blah blah blah.. blah blah blah blah.. just because you say something doesn't make it true.