29-01-2005 14:10									#421
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Man, this thread is a cluster****. Pity the poor gay smokers of the world. I still smoke, although it is getting a bit pricey and I will probably pack it in. I know it isn't very good for me, but I enjoy tobacco, it is an enjoyable substance to abuse. The health care costs thing is ridiculous. I pay a fortune in taxes on cigarettes which goes to fund the additional costs that smoking puts on the health system. Would that all such dangerous activities had similar taxes on them (McDeath for a start). I don't think I should be allowed to smoke anywhere, and that rules should be enforced so that non-smokers do not have to work next to someone smoking up a storm. If a company is being made to pay higher health insurance premiums because of smokers, the smokers should pay the difference. But what this article describes is a ridiculous form of paternalism. At most the company can justify a differential health premium for smokers, there is no justification for the wanton intrusion into people's private lives that has occurred in this case. Again, the morality police are out in force, trying to organize other people's lives for their own sense of power. They should make me king, I'd soon show them what happens when you take their logic to the nth degree - it's Plato's Republic for them, and that means mandatory geometry every morning at 5am and execution for people who like bad music.

	29-01-2005 14:47									#422
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH In the UK smokers pay loads more in tax than they get back in healthcare: http://money.telegraph.co.uk/money/.../23/cnban23.xml

That's what's so disgusting about the state sanctioned persecution of smokers.

We're junkies to a drug that the state profits off of massively, but we are the new lepers.

:shrug:

I guess every generation needs its lepers.

	29-01-2005 14:49									#423
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quote: Originally posted by Starchild Just do what the UK does and annually increase the duty on packs of cigs. Like MikeH said, we gain far more than we spend (even though I do support an Ireland style ban on smoking in public). At last check, packs of 20 were selling in the offy I worked at for £4.85. That's over $10 per pack.

That's about what we pay... in 'low tax' Alberta.

	29-01-2005 14:52									#424
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It's interesting to see who the bigots are in this thread, who supports discrimination against a group when said group does no harm to the others (i.e firing people from work because they smoke out of the workplace).

It certainly puts some other debates in perspective, like the gay rights debates.

	29-01-2005 14:52									#425
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove There is good news on the horizon regarding all of these problems. A new drug is in trials that dramatically curbs appetite, but also seems to reduce the craving for cigarettes. The drug it turns out is a Cannabinoid Receptor Blocker , it literally turns off the munchies. Of course as you might deduce it blocks the effects of marijuana on the brain. Given the epiudemic of obesity, smoking and drug use among our nations youth I predict that once it hits the market entire high schools will be put on this stuff.

What is that stuff?

A couple of run ins with Zyban has me down from ~50 cigarettes per day to under 25 (two packs a day to just under one, if I don't stay up late arguing on Internet forums).

I developed bronchitis a couple of years ago, so I am a little bit motivated, but as long as I can buy the ****ing things in any corner store I'm not gonna stop without a lot of help.

	29-01-2005 15:10									#426
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quote: Originally posted by Asher My point wasn't that you smoke for respect, but whenever you hear of somebody getting lung cancer after being a smoker decades after we were told just how bad it was, you start to wonder just how smart they really were. It's a terrible way to leave a lasting impression. You die looking like an idiot.

No, you die a junkie. I think that's worse, cause you got informed somewhere along the way, but you just couldn't stop it.

	29-01-2005 15:18									#427
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quote: Originally posted by Japher You aren't required to take a drug test... but if you want the job, and they want to test, than you better take the test.

You aren't required to let your home be searched... but if you want the job, and they want to search, then you better let them serach your home...

Good little brown shirt, you are.

	29-01-2005 15:22									#428
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quote: Originally posted by Japher they don't "have" to be employed When you start a job there is generally some sort of contract or agreement.

Yeah, and there are contracts that require you to be moral. Want to guess what happened to gay people in years gone past when they were found out?

You think these intrutions are good ideas?

Oh, I forgot, you're a good little brown shirt.

	29-01-2005 16:07									#429
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Companies employing people based on who costs them the least to do the same amount of work? Gee, what an outrage.

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither That's what's so disgusting about the state sanctioned persecution of smokers. We're junkies to a drug that the state profits off of massively, but we are the new lepers. :shrug: I guess every generation needs its lepers.

As always, self-inflicted = no pity.

I feel sorry for the first generation of smokers who picked up the habit before the negative effects of breathing in smoke became known. Everyone who picked it up since then...

	29-01-2005 16:35									#430
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First generation of smokers?! You mean like the preceding 200 or more years since tobacco was popularised in Europe? Whatever are you going to do with the natives and their sweet grass in your presumptuous conceit?

You puppies know ****. I have Levis that are older than you, but people like you and Asher see fit to pass judgement as if your young world were the be all and end all of existance.

My only consolation is that you too will become an old fart, and your experiences will be given as much respect by tomorrow's youth as you and Asher give mine.

	29-01-2005 16:37									#431
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither You puppies know ****. I have Levis that are older than you, but people like you and Asher see fit to pass judgement as if your young world were the be all and end all of existance. My only consolation is that you too will become an old fart, and your experiences will be given as much respect by tomorrow's youth as you and Asher give mine.

Has your Geritol supply run out again ?

	29-01-2005 16:38									#432
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns I feel sorry for the first generation of smokers who picked up the habit before the negative effects of breathing in smoke became known. Everyone who picked it up since then...

Incidently, if your 'generation' of nonsmokers were so bloody high and righteous, WTF are the ****ing things still legal and being taxed to excess? Hmmm?

Cram your holier than thou bullshit until you actually do something to change things, OK?

	29-01-2005 16:39									#433
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom Has your Geritol supply run out again ?

Nope, still got beer in the fridge, thanks.

	29-01-2005 16:39									#434
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom Has your Geritol supply run out again ?

ABout one week ago

	29-01-2005 16:41									#435
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Shush you.

	29-01-2005 16:50									#436
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Incidently, if your 'generation' of nonsmokers were so bloody high and righteous, WTF are the ****ing things still legal and being taxed to excess? Hmmm? Cram your holier than thou bullshit until you actually do something to change things, OK?

You are told the effects of smoking -> you do it anyway = stupid.

If something looks like a duck and swims like a duck, I'll call it a duck. And regarding my "holier than thou bullshit" - I practice what I preach. I don't smoke despite being well and truely able to pick the habit up. :shrug: I guess I learn from the experience of others.

	29-01-2005 16:52									#437
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quote: Originally posted by rah No, what this thread shows is the raw hatred of smokers by non-smokers. If the same hatred was shown towards their group, they complain. But it's ok to hate smokers because they choose to smoke. Pretty pathetic. It stopped being a choice many years ago. I've tried to quit many times. I would choose not to smoke, but it is a strong addiction and I have not been strong enough. Instead of showing sympathy, some choose hate. It's disgusting.

It's sadly true. The lack of tolerance here is baffling.

Don't take me wrong, I hate people who smoke elsewhere than in smoker areas, and I have tried hard to derive my friends from smoking (until I understood how nonproductive it was). And I would even probably leave my gf if she smoke.

However, no matter how much I dislike the smoker's lifestyle (and in particular when it affects the non-smoker I am), I find it terrible to fire people on these grounds, to discriminate on these grounds. The employer can condone a behaviour code at the workplace. I'm perfectly OK with a No-smoking policy at work, just like I agree with a No-gay-sex policy, or just like I agree with a No-preaching-your-religious-hatred-of-abortion policy at a pharmacy. But to intrude in the employee's private life, where he cannot affect the company, is definitely not the employer's job.

The support for such intrusion by so many people here is not a pretty picture

	29-01-2005 16:55									#438
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns You are told the effects of smoking -> you do it anyway = stupid. If something looks like a duck and swims like a duck, I'll call it a duck. And regarding my "holier than thou bullshit" - I practice what I preach. I don't smoke despite being well and truely able to pick the habit up. :shrug: I guess I learn from the experience of others.

Yeah, like the experience of those who have been smoking for 20 or 30 years.

I guess you laugh at alcoholics and heroin junkies too, yes?

	29-01-2005 16:56									#439
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It's good you don't smoke, just don;t be an ******* to those who do. There but for the grace of God, or something...

	29-01-2005 16:58									#440
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Thats the thing though, by smoking the employees are driving up costs for their health-insurance. As the company pays for these costs, it affects the company. All employee costs should be based on the work they do - not one rate for smokers and another rate for non-smokers. Where is the equality in paying more for one worker than their coworker based on nothing more than their private life?

EDIT: Xpost. This reply was based on this quote:

quote: But to intrude in the employee's private life, where he cannot affect the company, is definitely not the employer's job.

	29-01-2005 17:02									#441
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But what about fat people? What about those genetically predisposed to disease? Is some company in Michigan right in wanting DNA to see if you will be a risk for early heart disease or some rarer conditions?

	29-01-2005 17:08									#442
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Why not people who participate in extreme sports, or even skiing?

Why not people who eat too much?

Why not people who don't excersize at all?

Why not people who drink too much?

Why only smokers?

Why? We are the new lepers. If you think that singling people out and culling them off is OK, you are normal. That has been going on for a long time. Someone has always been the target of the busy bodies. I guess it's just my turn.

	29-01-2005 17:09									#443
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns Thats the thing though, by smoking the employees are driving up costs for their health-insurance.

Are the insurance premiums higher for smokers than non-smokers? If yes, I would have agreed with the employees being offered the chance to pay this difference with their own salary, but certainly not with firing them outright.

And this individualized health insurance system sucks bigtime. This thread is yet another reason to oppose it

	29-01-2005 17:18									#444
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If the company is required to pay for their employees health insurance I don't see why they can't choose employees using the same criteria insurance companies already use to assess the health-risks of their customers.

An even better solution, of course, would be to make employees pay for any excess costs over the base cost of insurance. This way the company pays for all employees equally and people who make lifestyle choices that are likely to increase their future medical costs will be free to at their own expense.

	29-01-2005 17:20									#445
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Are the insurance premiums higher for smokers than non-smokers?

Apparently.

quote: If yes, I would have agreed with the employees being offered the chance to pay this difference with their own salary, but certainly not with firing them outright.

You aren't the only one to think so, either.

quote: And this individualized health insurance system sucks bigtime. This thread is yet another reason to oppose it

	29-01-2005 17:21									#446
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Well'ell there's a good question, why is the insurance industry charging smokers more, but not the chronically fat? Hmm?

	29-01-2005 17:25									#447
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Well'ell there's a good question, why is the insurance industry charging smokers more, but not the chronically fat? Hmm?

I don't know about US health-insurance policies, but I'd imagine they have a broad array of fine-print clauses, that make fat people, smokers, gay people, people in violent neighborhoods, or whatever pay more money...

Well, maybe not, But I would be surprised if the American health insurance companies singled out smoking as the only health hazard that is worth higher premiums.

	29-01-2005 17:27									#448
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Nope, nope, nope, wait, smokers? Yup.

Only category that gets the treatment.

Interesting, in'it?

	29-01-2005 17:30									#449
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I mean, I could have been convicted of drunk driving 4 times, and driving without a license 8 times, I could be imprisoned for years for that behaviour which is likely to take human life and result in significant injury to myself, but I'll not be charged a dime extra in health insurance. But if I smoke three times a month, once each on the Sundays that I go to Church, I am an evil risk and therefore must be charged more.

	29-01-2005 17:31									#450
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Interesting, in'it?

Yup.

How old is it (to demand higher health insurance premiums from smokers)? Maybe the insurance companies are testing a system they want to see generalized in the future, by targetting the group whose singling-out will raise the lowest backlash.