29-01-2005 17:34									#451
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Several years now. And no, if they even thought of charging Asher for being gay, or Wilma for having children, they would get their asses handed to them in either the courts of law or the court of public opinion.

Heaven forbid they charge for drinking. I doubt many execs smoke (by how things are going) but they all drink.

	29-01-2005 17:37									#452
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Nope, smoking is the acceptable target.

I would bet that tobacco would be illegal now, except our governments make too much money from it.

	29-01-2005 20:13									#453
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Man, this thread is a cluster****. Pity the poor gay smokers of the world. I still smoke, although it is getting a bit pricey and I will probably pack it in. I know it isn't very good for me, but I enjoy tobacco, it is an enjoyable substance to abuse. The health care costs thing is ridiculous. I pay a fortune in taxes on cigarettes which goes to fund the additional costs that smoking puts on the health system. Would that all such dangerous activities had similar taxes on them (McDeath for a start). I don't think I should be allowed to smoke anywhere, and that rules should be enforced so that non-smokers do not have to work next to someone smoking up a storm. If a company is being made to pay higher health insurance premiums because of smokers, the smokers should pay the difference. But what this article describes is a ridiculous form of paternalism. At most the company can justify a differential health premium for smokers, there is no justification for the wanton intrusion into people's private lives that has occurred in this case. Again, the morality police are out in force, trying to organize other people's lives for their own sense of power. They should make me king, I'd soon show them what happens when you take their logic to the nth degree - it's Plato's Republic for them, and that means mandatory geometry every morning at 5am and execution for people who like bad music.

Hmmm... something Agathon and I actually agree on... Oh... except "and that means mandatory geometry every morning at 5am and execution for people who like bad music" part

It's nice to see that some people see what kind of BS this all is, and what an invasion of privacy it is. Yeah, I don't think any smoker will deny the possible health problems, but we all have our reasons to smoke.

Again... I just find it weird that people who have been discriminated against can rally around the "screw the smokers" flag, and feel it is right and justified. You would think they, of all people, would understand the concept of wrongful discrimination...

	29-01-2005 20:36									#454
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor It's interesting to see who the bigots are in this thread, who supports discrimination against a group when said group does no harm to the others (i.e firing people from work because they smoke out of the workplace). It certainly puts some other debates in perspective, like the gay rights debates.

How does this thread change any perspective on the gay rights issue?

	29-01-2005 20:49									#455
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov How does this thread change any perspective on the gay rights issue?

Maybe because the biggest anti smoking bigot is gay

I know it made me wonder why I go to the effort to defend their rights when "certain" gays here are attacking my rights

But then again... I won't stoop to that level, and will continue to defend the rights of others

	29-01-2005 20:52									#456
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So one gay out of how many on 'Poly is defending it, and it could change someone's perspective on the gay rights issue and make one question their support of those rights?

I'm sorry, I was under the impression that issues such as that stood on their merits, not on who defended them.

	29-01-2005 21:03									#457
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov So one gay out of how many on 'Poly is defending it, and it could change someone's perspective on the gay rights issue and make one question their support of those rights? I'm sorry, I was under the impression that issues such as that stood on their merits, not on who defended them.

I just said it won't change my thinking

However, it's kind of sad to see somebody repeatedly say that it's not OK to discriminate against what he is, but that's it's OK for him to discriminate against others.

From a smokers perspective... we see.

"I'm gay, but it's wrong to discriminate against me"
"You're a smoker, and I can discriminate against you"

Being gay is ok, but being a smoker isn't!

It just makes me a tad angry to see somebody who falls in a discriminated group not see that his actions are just as bad as people he whines about it when it happens to him

	29-01-2005 21:07									#458
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov How does this thread change any perspective on the gay rights issue?

It doesn't change my perspective on the issues (Asher's ramblings won't change my opinion one bit), but it will change my perspective on the debates I can see here, in which Asher strongly participates.

This here thread leads me to better understand Asher, and it will change my perspective on Asher's opinions in gay threads.

(Sorry for discussing the posters)

	29-01-2005 23:17									#459
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns If the company is required to pay for their employees health insurance I don't see why they can't choose employees using the same criteria insurance companies already use to assess the health-risks of their customers.

I have no problem with an employer not hiring smokers. That is all well and good.

But this company fired 4 people for refusing to take a drug test to see if they smoke. These people were already hired.

4 people out of 200 doesn't make much of a difference in healthcar costs.

If this company doesn't want to hire more smokers, that is their right.

If my company said we had to take random drug tests I'd refuse as well. Simply because they were not part of the original terms of employment.

ACK!

	29-01-2005 23:55									#460
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ooh, this could be my first 500 post thread.

	30-01-2005 00:00									#461
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Everything has been said.

Ming, please close this thread.



ACK!

	30-01-2005 00:27									#462
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yeah, where's Asher to stir up some more debate.

	30-01-2005 00:28									#463
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It's interesting to me that people view smokers as victims.

They choose to smoke, they lack the willpower to quit like most people from their generation -- it's their damn fault. Period.

You won't get any sympathy from me.

The fact is you cost more to the health care system. You cost more to insure. For that reason, a private company in an at-will employment state can fire you for raising their cost and refusing to do anything about it (with 2 years notice, even).

I support discrimination based on somebody's intentional actions. I believe a company can fire somebody after they become a felon, too. Oh, those poor felons. Somebody hand me a kleenex, what a persecuted bunch they are.

	30-01-2005 00:32									#464
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor It doesn't change my perspective on the issues (Asher's ramblings won't change my opinion one bit), but it will change my perspective on the debates I can see here, in which Asher strongly participates. This here thread leads me to better understand Asher, and it will change my perspective on Asher's opinions in gay threads. (Sorry for discussing the posters)

There is a fundamental difference on discriminating against something out of their control (skin color, height, sex, sexual orientation) and discriminating against something a person chooses to do.

And I don't buy for one second that it's impossible to quit smoking.

And for the constant comparison to fat people, too -- if the company gave them 2 years notice and assistance like they gave the smokers (probably access to a gym, weight-less program, nutritionist, etc), then that would be legal too. If people choose not to do anything about their health, which is costing the company money, then they're taking advantage of the company's generosity in paying for your health care.

	30-01-2005 00:32									#465
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And of course I agree with Asher, but I'm not sure if he puts it the best way.

As he has mentioned earlier, discrimination happens all the time. Especially with regards with age. But employers also discriminate with personality. An employer isn't going to hire someone with a bad personality.

All you guys can fantasize about a pinko commie world where everyone is treated equal, but it just isn't going to happen.

	30-01-2005 00:41									#466
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quote: Originally posted by Asher There is a fundamental difference on discriminating against something out of their control (skin color, height, sex, sexual orientation) and discriminating against something a person chooses to do.

More lame justification... discrimination is discrimination... something you will never understand.

You've made your position very clear... "don't discriminate against me, but I can discriminate against you because it's different"

People have been finding "differences" and justifications for many evil acts... With your attitude, it's no surprise that you fall in this group.

Enjoy your selfish self centered attitudes... it's clear to everybody but you.

It's nice to see that many people see you for what you are... and for those that don't... their problem

	30-01-2005 00:42									#467
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quote: Originally posted by Ming More lame justification... discrimination is discrimination... something you will never understand.

Discrimination is everywhere.

If there wasn't discrimination, the hiring process would be a lottery.

Discrimination is having mens/womens washrooms...discrimination is having a smoking/non-smoking sections.

If you're so hell-bent against any and all discrimination, I look forward to your justification of those blatant cases of discrimination.

Or maybe the most likely scenario is you're defending the smokers here because it's the easiest thing to do.

	30-01-2005 00:55									#468
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quote: Originally posted by Asher There is a fundamental difference on discriminating against something out of their control (skin color, height, sex, sexual orientation) and discriminating against something a person chooses to do.

You choose to have gay sex. You could be like millions in history, and stay in the closet. That you got out of the closet is your choice, and by your logic, you should suffer the consequences.

quote: And I don't buy for one second that it's impossible to quit smoking.

It depends on the people. We aren't created equal. Some will manage to quit, some won't. Some will resist the calls of the cigarette in their youth, some won't. To expect everybody to be able to resist the cigarette is absurd. Not everybody has the same force of will, and not everybody is addiction-sensitive to the same amount.

quote: And for the constant comparison to fat people, too -- if the company gave them 2 years notice and assistance like they gave the smokers (probably access to a gym, weight-less program, nutritionist, etc), then that would be legal too. If people choose not to do anything about their health, which is costing the company money, then they're taking advantage of the company's generosity in paying for your health care.

1. If the company's paying for your health care is "generosity" in your world view, your society of reference is messed up, and I'm very glad not to live there.
2. Again, if there are higher insurance premiums for fat people, the company should give the fat person the option to pay the difference.

	30-01-2005 00:55									#469
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Or maybe the most likely scenario is you're defending the smokers here because it's the easiest thing to do.

No... it's easier to throw around insults and discriminate than it is to stand up for principals... you are the one taking the easy way out

But frankly... this is too easy. With every post you make you show exactly what kind of person you are. It's obvious to anybody looking at this thread...

So enjoy...

	30-01-2005 01:01									#470
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor You choose to have gay sex.

It is actually different to discriminate based on them having sex, versus which gender they're attracted to.

quote: 1. If the company's paying for your health care is "generosity" in your world view, your society of reference is messed up, and I'm very glad not to live there.

It's called a "benefit" for a reason. It's not manadatory, companies don't always do it.

quote: 2. Again, if there are higher insurance premiums for fat people, the company should give the fat person the option to pay the difference.

That is one option, but since it's a private company they can do what they wish...

	30-01-2005 01:02									#471
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quote: Originally posted by Ming No... it's easier to throw around insults and discriminate than it is to stand up for principals... you are the one taking the easy way out But frankly... this is too easy. With every post you make you show exactly what kind of person you are. It's obvious to anybody looking at this thread... So enjoy...

It's funny that somebody who is pretending to take the high-road here is the one with nothing but a stream of ad hominems, ignoring the content of the actual debate.

	30-01-2005 01:18									#472
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quote: Originally posted by Asher It is actually different to discriminate based on them having sex, versus which gender they're attracted to.

And this is one of the reason the anti-gay bigots give against gay marriage: Everybody is free to have an heterosexual marriage! Gays have the choice to act against their impulses!

Really, no, I don't see any qualitiative difference between discrimination against smoking and gay sex. If tomorrow, your company told you "in two years from now, we will fire any of our employees that has homosexual sex" (with some bullshit justification), would you defend them so adamantly as you defended the employer in this thread?

Edit: forgot about your company giving out material to help you stopping having gay sex: Leviticuses, moralistic and pseudo-mediacl conferences, free hookers.

	30-01-2005 01:19									#473
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Really, no, I don't see any qualitiative difference between discrimination against smoking and gay sex. If tomorrow, your company told you "in two years from now, we will fire any of our employees that has homosexual sex" (with some bullshit justification), would you defend them so adamantly as you defended the employer in this thread?

They have every right to do so (in a state like this company is, but not here).

I would definintely take the 2-years notice to find a different company to work for. I wouldn't want to work for such a company.

	30-01-2005 01:21									#474
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I think the participants of this thread will remember it next time an anti-gay discrimination is discussed

	30-01-2005 01:24									#475
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quote: Originally posted by Asher They have every right to do so (in a state like this company is, but not here).

The question is not whether it is legal. Nobody challenged the legality of what happened.

The question is whether it is right. You defended that the company was perfectly right in doing so, and you sniped the smoker's likestyle and character on the way.

So, if your company forbids you from having homosexual sex, will you say they are perfectly right in doing so?

	30-01-2005 01:24									#476
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I think the participants of this thread will remember it next time an anti-gay discrimination is discussed

It's still a fundamentally different thing.

Not all gays are high-risk, just those who choose to have promiscuous sex.
All smokers are high-risk, they all choose to smoke.

So it would be completely different things to fire a group of people because some of them are high-risk (a group defined on something they can't change), than to fire a group of people because all of them are high-risk (a group defined by a choice they made, and refuse to correct).

	30-01-2005 01:26									#477
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor The question is not whether it is legal. Nobody challenged the legality of what happened. The question is whether it is right. You defended that the company was perfectly right in doing so, and you sniped the smoker's likestyle and character on the way. So, if your company forbids you from having homosexual sex, will you say they are perfectly right in doing so?

I was just justifying it from their POV, and apparently it's an issue for them.

I would say it is "right" because it's not illegal, and it makes sense, but I wouldn't do it myself. It's bad for the corporate culture/PR.

If my company forbids me from having homosexual sex, I'd give them the proverbial finger, and take my knowledge and trade secrets to their competitor.

	30-01-2005 06:09									#478
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I think the participants of this thread will remember it next time an anti-gay discrimination is discussed

Not really. I'm not going to allow Asher's trolling to affect my views on other issues, or of people like Boris who would be affected by those issues.

Asher likes to argue. He'll take a position and invite one and all to come knock him down. The more who step up, the more he enjoys it. He'll say some extrme things to get the pot boiling, and to keep it boiling. I'm sure he believes some of them at least partly, but he pushes them to get the ball rolling.