29-01-2005 02:51									#361
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Dismissing my links because they don't support your opinion is not arguing Asher.

I'm dissmissing your links because they're not relevant. My opinion is gay people tend to be more sexually promiscuous, and sexually promiscuous people are more likely to get STDs.

But not all gay people are sexually promiscuous.
But all smokers are smokers.

It is not fair to discriminate on sexuality because the stereotype is they are sexually promiscuous. This is fundamentally different than discriminating against smokers -- 100% of smokers smoke, you know. That's not a stereotype.

	29-01-2005 02:52									#362
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by rah One question. Do you think it would be fair to fire sexually promiscuous men?

Absolutely, it would only be fair given that the idea is to have low-health-risk employees.

	29-01-2005 02:52									#363
	Put an end to popups!

quote: My opinion is gay people tend to be more sexually promiscuous, and sexually promiscuous people are more likely to get STDs.

your point keeps changing... I thought it was about company costs? now it's about promiscous people?

	29-01-2005 02:54									#364
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Japher your point keeps changing... I thought it was about company costs? now it's about promiscous people?

It was a supporting point.

My point was the idea is to lower company costs by getting rid of employees who engage in high-risk activities.

Smoking and promiscuous sex fall under this category.

Gay people do not. Smoking and promiscuous sex is 100% risky behavior, while not all gay people engage in risky behavior.

That is the difference. That is my point.

	29-01-2005 02:55									#365
	Tired of ads?

I would love to see the guidelines and testing for promiscouity. It would probably be open hunting season on gays under the guise of lowering company costs.

	29-01-2005 02:57									#366
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by rah I would love to see the guidelines and testing for promiscouity. It would probably be open hunting season on gays under the guise of lowering company costs.

Maybe, it'll be interesting if somebody tried.

I know if they fired me for that reason, I'd be laughing all the way to the bank and be a PR nightmare for them.

	29-01-2005 02:58									#367
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

So how was my link pointless?

One shows that the cost for domestic partnerships would increase company health care costs by 17.1%. You dismiss it because they are a religious advocacy group, and, in your opinion, has to small of a group, and is only California... blah! How does that dismiss their findings?

I also post links that say gay men are becoming more and more permiscous. Supporting that gay men are more likely to contract stds... Which is something every health professional agrees on. And you just say that doesn't support the incured costs!

They aren't pointless... they just don't support what you want to see.

	29-01-2005 03:00									#368
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I think most companies curb these costs by having set primiums and deductables anyway. AS well as a set number of sick days or performance reviews.

I really don't see how smoking or being gay would cost a company more. It will, in the end, cost the individual more, as well as our national health care system generally footing the bill for most of the problems with such people, as it occurs later in their lives.

	29-01-2005 03:01									#369
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Japher So how was my link pointless? One shows that the cost for domestic partnerships would increase company health care costs by 17.1%. You dismiss it because they are a religious advocacy group, and, in your opinion, has to small of a group, and is only California... blah! How does that dismiss their findings?

That first link wasn't pointless, the rest were.

The first link was a shady study that lacked detail from a "small group" somewhere in California, in an article from a religious "family" and "faith" advocacy group. Forgive me for gagging on its bias and uselessness.

The other links are also irrelevant -- it doesn't matter if a study from 1998 centered in the London area says sexual promiscuoty is increasing there, if it's not reflected in total costs.

Companies that have done this switch in documented cases do not have a sizable increase.

There is lots of FUD and paranoia and scare-tactics out there about homosexuality, which is why posting a barrage of links from regional studies from 7 years ago, or religious advcacy groups is considered "useless" in a debate to corporate health insurance cost.

	29-01-2005 03:06									#370
	Tired of ads?

Similarlly I doubt someone as huge as P&G would perform a study showing that domestic partnerships would cost them too much to do. Since gay and lesbian advocacy groups would protest them.

Really, what it says is that for P&G to not give gays and lesbians medicals coverage for their SOs would cost them more.

	29-01-2005 03:06									#371
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Asher It was a supporting point. My point was the idea is to lower company costs by getting rid of employees who engage in high-risk activities.

So it's ok to fire all fat people. (choose to eat)
Child bearing women (choose to have children)
Employees that drive to work (choose a riskier way to work vs walking or taking the train)
Anyone that ever drinks. (choose to drink)
Anyone that participates in sports for fun (choose to maybe have an injury on the ski slopes or shooting hoops)
Anyone who travels to different countries.

WHERE DO YOU DRAW THE LINE?

	29-01-2005 04:41									#372
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by rah So it's ok to fire all fat people. (choose to eat) Child bearing women (choose to have children) Employees that drive to work (choose a riskier way to work vs walking or taking the train) Anyone that ever drinks. (choose to drink) Anyone that participates in sports for fun (choose to maybe have an injury on the ski slopes or shooting hoops) Anyone who travels to different countries. WHERE DO YOU DRAW THE LINE?

Simple: It's a private company -- wherever they choose to in an at-will state.

	29-01-2005 04:43									#373
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker You know, most companies only hire people if they have certain qualifications, and if they aren't capable of doing the job, they get fired!!! Not all discrimination is created equal. Discrimination = making a choice.

What does me smoking have to do with whether i can do my job?

	29-01-2005 04:43									#374
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

so private companies can violate civil rights laws?

I don't think so. discrimination is not allowed

	29-01-2005 04:53									#375
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Japher so private companies can violate civil rights laws? I don't think so. discrimination is not allowed

If discrimination was not allowed, Hooters would be able to hire fat male waitresses, the DMV would be able to hire driving instructors who are deaf-blind-mutes, and NASA could hire high school drop-outs to design the next Shuttle.

And yes, apparently they can -- just like how the Boy Scouts won their case to keep those sissy homos out of the Boy Scouts. And that's even easier to get into than businesses.

	29-01-2005 04:56									#376
	Increase Your PM Length

Yeah... but the minute somebody said they wouldn't hire him because he was gay, he would whine like a stuck pig. His idea of discrimination is that it's ok to discriminate against everybody else, but not him

	29-01-2005 05:00									#377
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Ming Yeah... but the minute somebody said they wouldn't hire him because he was gay, he would whine like a stuck pig. His idea of discrimination is that it's ok to discriminate against everybody else, but not him

You could fire me because I was gay.

It's all the better, I wouldn't want to work for such a company.

I would fire a lawsuit against the company for fun though. Because unlike firing people for smoking, firing people because they're gay is illegal.



I still think it's fundamentally different to fire someone because of something they can't change, than to fire someone for willfully engaging in risky behavior while the company pays your health insurance.

That includes gays that have promiscuous sex.

But you can continue making an innocent segment of the population guilty because of their orientation if you wish.

	29-01-2005 05:07									#378
	Inflate your Upload Space

Yep... it's different, because it doesn't effect you. We all understand perfectly

	29-01-2005 05:09									#379
	Inflate your Upload Space

Plus... I don't selectively disciminate... I believe gays should be treated fairly, even though it's not a life style that has any attraction to me... You discriminate simply because you don't like something... Hmmm... sounds like a lot of people that discriminate against gays

	29-01-2005 05:11									#380
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Ming Yep... it's different, because it doesn't effect you. We all understand perfectly

I'm going to explain this to you one more time. I realize you're in marketing, but if you just apply your mind for a minute you may comprehend.

The difference between firing for smoking and firing for being gay is this: All smokers are at a higher risk, not all gays are at a higher risk.

It is not unfair to fire smokers, because that was their choice, and they are 100% guaranteed to be doing something with high risk.

It is unfair to fire people because they're gay, because it was not their choice, and most gays don't have promiscuous sex (leading to the higher risks of HIV and other STDs). More people would be innocently fired for something they have no part of, aside from a stereotype.

It's really not a terribly different concept. I suppose as someone who's in marketing, all you boys do is play with stereotypes, so this is difficult for you.

	29-01-2005 05:11									#381
	Increase Your PM Length

IMO, a lot of the ppl/race/whatever that are normally discriminated against are more prejudice than those who are not.

I think that if a person is faced with a lot of discrimination in their life they will in turn become more proned to discriminate.

Strange, it's like how you said you would never be like your parents, and then you turn into them. Or, more like how kids who are molested are more likely to molest when they get older.

Must be some psychological thing eh?

	29-01-2005 05:13									#382
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Ming Plus... I don't selectively disciminate... I believe gays should be treated fairly, even though it's not a life style that has any attraction to me... You discriminate simply because you don't like something... Hmmm... sounds like a lot of people that discriminate against gays

You just discriminated right there by saying there's a "gay lifestyle".

I admit to discriminating -- EVERYBODY does. You're too dense to realize you do it all the time as well, and you're that much more of an ass for pretending you don't.

	29-01-2005 05:16									#383
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Asher It's really not a terribly different concept. I suppose as someone who's in marketing, all you boys do is play with stereotypes, so this is difficult for you.

Just more insults, and the same lame it's a matter of choice so it's OK to discriminate. You've shown plenty of discrimination in this thread... but I guess it's difficult for you to see it since it's not against you... but something you find disgusting.

The same reason why people discriminate against gays...

You are as bad as people that discriminate against gays, and you don't even realize it...
Sad... very sad...

	29-01-2005 05:20									#384
	Put an end to popups!

quote: You've shown plenty of discrimination in this thread... but I guess it's difficult for you to see it since it's not against you

I don't know how many times I've admitted to discriminating in this thread. Remedial reading may be in order for you, eh?

Here's whats real funny: you're giving me a hard time for discriminating against people who not only eat up my tax dollars for their stupidity, not only do they take up valuable space in lines for treatment for those of us not stupid enough to smoke, and not only do they harm the lungs of everyone around them...

I understand why people with religious beliefs discriminate against gays, and I freely discriminate against them, too.

It's better to be open about it than to pretend you don't, like you do.

I suppose it makes you feel like a better person, saying you don't discriminate...even when you talk about things like the "gay lifestyle" and its associated "high risks of STDs".

	29-01-2005 05:22									#385
	Got spare money?

Having an opinion doesnt equal discrimmination acting on that feeling however does.

	29-01-2005 05:23									#386
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Mrs. Tuberski Having an opinion doesnt equal discrimmination acting on that feeling however does.

I haven't acted on anything, so therefore I'm not discriminating?

	29-01-2005 05:27									#387
	Increase Your PM Length

Again... more insults.

Just like everybody else that discriminates, you have found a reason to justify it. The people that discrminate against gays have their justifications too.. but it doesn't make them right.

Discrimination is wrong... period!

So feel free to continue to talk about how since it's a choice, it's OK for you to discriminate... again, your are just giving people the justification to attack and discriminate against gays... because I'm sure they can come up with just as lame justifications as you've been using in this thread

But then again... you will probably never really understand this, and just continue treating other groups in ways you wouldn't want gays treated

	29-01-2005 05:29									#388
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

i never said you did. I was merely stating an opinion.You have strong opinions of smokers point taken. I dont understand why you feel that a person who makes a choice to do something whether it be good for them or not hasto dowith whether they should be punished. And let me make my self clear im saying things that are legal. And might I add as you say being gay is not a choice. but announcing it is.

	29-01-2005 05:29									#389
	Suffering from ads?

Discrimination is necessary, otherwise we wouldn't need qualifications and any person could get any job for any reason.

I suppose you don't think it's right that convicted felons can't be bonded and insured either?

I see no reason at all why the government should step in and assist smokers when they're being fired for not quiting, even when given 2 years notice and help from their employer to try. Everyone wins when people quit smoking.

It's not the government's job to force companies to keep hiring people who intentionally destroy their lungs and the lungs of people around them.

	29-01-2005 05:33									#390
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Mrs. Tuberski i never said you did. I was merely stating an opinion.You have strong opinions of smokers point taken. I dont understand why you feel that a person who makes a choice to do something whether it be good for them or not hasto dowith whether they should be punished.

They shouldn't be punished, per se. It's just that companies have a right not to employ people who choose to inflate their health care rates by making a stupid choice and refusing to correct it.

Smokers made a choice, they can be fired for it if it reduces their value to the company.