26-01-2005 08:41									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov But couldn't they have compromised? Perhaps they could give smokers the chance to pay extra into the health plan to cover potential increased costs for the company?

Yup, the company should give the smokers a choice.

	26-01-2005 08:43									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Yup, the company should give the smokers a choice.

It gave tham two years to stop smoking or find employment elsewhere.

	26-01-2005 08:46									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Asher I know I sure as hell hate knowing I'm paying tons of money to pay for the health care of morons who still smoke in Canada.

And what about FAT people, higher rate of heart problmes... and gays, higher rates of aids.. people who drive fast on the highway, higher rates of death, why pick on just one group of people?

	26-01-2005 08:47									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Asher It gave tham two years to stop smoking or find employment elsewhere.

What if somebody told you that you had to change your sexual preference in two years or find employment elsewhere?

	26-01-2005 08:52									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Ming What if somebody told you that you had to change your sexual preference in two years or find employment elsewhere?

I would sue for discrimination, because that would be illegal in Canada, period.

If I was in a state like this one, I'd switch to a different company. I would not, ever, want to be associated with such a company.

	26-01-2005 08:53									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Asher They do when they pay for your well-being.

No, they don't. My well-being is my own business. If they want to pay for healthcare of all employees, fine. Just don't manage your headcount in a way that minimizes costs.

Firing smokers is akin to firing people with a gene that predisposes them to breast/prostate cancer. It is completely unethical.

	26-01-2005 08:58									#67
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Asher...
I guess if you think smokers are morons because of higher health costs to you... then you must think gays are morons too because of the higher health care costs to you as well

	26-01-2005 08:59									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Asher It gave tham two years to stop smoking or find employment elsewhere.

They can also allow the smokers to pay the extra on their medical insurances.

	26-01-2005 09:00									#69
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quote: Originally posted by St Leo quote: Originally posted by Asher They do when they pay for your well-being. No, they don't. My well-being is my own business.

No it's not. If you get sick all the time, you wouldn't be doing your part.

	26-01-2005 09:00									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger They can also allow the smokers to pay the extra on their medical insurances.

Then they should make fat people and gays pay up too... Oh women as well because they are really expensive when they have kids... Oh, and people with high blood preasure as well...

	26-01-2005 09:01									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Asher... I guess if you think smokers are morons because of higher health costs to you... then you must think gays are morons too because of the higher health care costs to you as well

I think the gays who live high-risk lifestyles are morons, not all gays.

All smokers play the high-risk card intentionally as well.

It's a bad analogy -- it's not gays that are high risk, it's gays that lead a high-risk lifestyle (which happens are a higher rate than straights).

The gays I know are all uber-fit professionals, and if anything have perhaps the lowest health-care cost.

	26-01-2005 09:06									#72
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Many smokers live long lives as well... the fact is, this is based on statistics... and gays have a higher chance of getting aids, and that's a fact... so gays are as big as morons as smokers using your logic.

	26-01-2005 09:22									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Many smokers live long lives as well... the fact is, this is based on statistics... and gays have a higher chance of getting aids, and that's a fact... so gays are as big as morons as smokers using your logic.

No, because sexuality is not a choice like smoking it.

High-risk gays (which is a choice) are as big of morons as smokers are.

	26-01-2005 09:39									#74
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I hope the company has a few good lawyers. Thas Just wrong!

	26-01-2005 09:43									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Atahualpa I am a social smoker for over a year now and as it looks I am never going to start that **** for real and I never smoked for real. I don't like the taste and I don't like the smell. I've got two packs at home, which I haven't touched since new year's day or so.

What do you mean for real? Do you stand there puffing on it without inhaling the smoke. If you inhale the smoke you are smoking for real no matter how little or how much you smoke.

	26-01-2005 09:51									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber What do you mean for real? Do you stand there puffing on it without inhaling the smoke. If you inhale the smoke you are smoking for real no matter how little or how much you smoke.

I dont get that either. What you hold a ciggerette to look cool? F*** that if you smoke you smoke smokers arent leepers you know.

	26-01-2005 13:17									#77
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They're *******s

That kind of crap is the reason why the employers should be required by law to give a valid reason before firing someone. That's typically an abuse of power

	26-01-2005 20:02									#78
	Re: Company fires all employees who smoke! Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Dissident http://www.wral.com/news/4126577/detail.html Pretty radical in my opinion. And this comes from someone who does not like smoking. Or the fact I have to pay higher insurance costs because of it. While I do not like the restrictions in individual freedom, or the possible things that can come of this (such as firing unhealthy fat people in the future). I can't help but think it's fair for non-smokers not to have to pay higher insurance to cover their smoking co-workers. Why should we have to pay for other people who want to kill themselves? I'm really divided on this issue myself. I'm not sure how to vote. In this case, it's good because it forced many non smokers to quit smoking. Isn't that a good thing. But I hate the restrictions in personal liberty. I could go either way on this issue- the flip-flopper that I am.

If the company in question can provide a reason why they should be able to fire smokers then they should be able to. I doubt they can, but it is apparently a health care company.

	26-01-2005 20:10									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Whoha If the company in question can provide a reason why they should be able to fire smokers then they should be able to.

1) It's an at-risk state, the employer can fire you on whim
2) It raises health insurance premiums if you're a smoker, raising company cost

	26-01-2005 20:47									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor They're *******s That kind of crap is the reason why the employers should be required by law to give a valid reason before firing someone. That's typically an abuse of power

This balanced by unemployment liability. While employment may be at-will, companies will be held liable for unemployment claims should it be determined that they terminated without adequate cause. And in most cases, the judges favor the employees much, much more than the companies. I've participated in several hearings disputing unemployment claims for people fired for blatantly wrong behavior, but the judges almost always rule in the favor of the employee.

One such example was a woman who logged onto someone else's computer, read their e-mail and then confronted the person over what she read in their e-mail. She was fired over it, but a judge still made us liable for unemployment costs because she supposedly wasn't given "adequate" knowledge of the policy and that she was never warned before the incident that she would be terminated over such a thing. This is despite the fact that such actions are explicitley forbidden in the employee handbook, which she certainly had and which states such behavior can lead to immediate termination, and that there was no reason to give her a warning before the incident, as this was the first time it had happened.

Unemployment costs are quite sizable for companies, so they aren't going to go around firing people willy-nilly.

	26-01-2005 21:07									#81
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If that's not illegal then US employment law totally sucks.

	26-01-2005 22:13									#82
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Mike, like Boris said, there are other, secondary 'penalties' on companies. Even if they fire someone legally, they will still have many costs associated with such an action.

	26-01-2005 22:38									#83
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quote: Mike, like Boris said, there are other, secondary 'penalties' on companies. Even if they fire someone legally, they will still have many costs associated with such an action.

yeah, like the disgruntled worker bringing an assualt rifle to work on his last day.

	26-01-2005 22:57									#84
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My insurance costs something like $90/month pretax for myself and my dependents. The company tacks on another $500/year to that cost for some unknown reason. They say you will get a $500 "deduction" to your health care costs (or the costs the company pays) if you take a health servey and meet with a registered nurse if you are an "at risk" person.

When I took the survey I smoked, had high blood pressure, and a high cholesterol.

The nurse I talked with over the phone told me I shouldn't smoke and urged me to quit, informing me that if I quit smoking and lost a couple of pounds I would feel better and live longer. That was it.

They gave me the discount. I still quit smoking (6 months now) and am on a diet now. It wasn't because of them, they still gave me my "discount"... or was it?

I still think it's dubious that they call it a discount when it is actually a fine

	26-01-2005 23:04									#85
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Anyway most smokers start to have health problems when they no longer work.
---

Strong (not too strong though ) unions.

	27-01-2005 00:07									#86
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I have no problem with them controlling me at work, but what I do outside is my business, as long as it doesn't impact work.

There are many many other bad health habits that this smacks of discrimination.

And the they had two years arguement doesn't change anything.

And the health cost thing may be a smoke screen.
I have only cost my insurance company a few hundred dollars over the last 10 years (I smoke) vs the thousands and thousands that my wife and child have cost them. They don't smoke. Many other smokers tell me the same thing. Ask a smoker the last time he saw a doctor for a non-emergency situation.


A lot of smokers will avoid doctors because they don't like listening to their lectures. Another reason they die younger. And less money is usually spent on their treatment prior to death since by the time they seek care and the time they die is usually shorter because it's sometimes too late to provide expensive live extending treatment.

What I find funny is that most everyone hates or distrusts insurance companies, but have no problem believing this because they're not smokers.

So the whole thing stinks.

Next it will be the guy that has a few extra drinks on Friday night, or the guy that picks up women all the time.

	27-01-2005 00:11									#87
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quote: I have only cost my insurance company a few hundred dollars over the last 10 years (I smoke)

The problem obviously isn't short-term costs related to giving health insurance to smokers.

They have a far higher rate of cancer, which is extremely expensive to treat.

	27-01-2005 00:14									#88
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If they seek treatment.

	27-01-2005 00:17									#89
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How many of smokers diagnosed with cancer will not seek treatment?

	27-01-2005 00:19									#90
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You said it again, DIAGNOSED, by whom, Doctors. If you don't see the doctor you can't be diagnosed. If you don't get it diagnosed until their are obvious symptoms, it's usually too late and your treatment cost is actually cheaper.