27-01-2005 00:23									#91
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quote: Originally posted by rah You said it again, DIAGNOSED, by whom, Doctors. If you don't see the doctor you can't be diagnosed. If you don't get it diagnosed until their are obvious symptoms, it's usually too late and your treatment cost is actually cheaper.

What does this have to do with smokers in particular?

	27-01-2005 00:31									#92
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As I said previoiusly, (if you had bothered to read) I stated that most smokers avoid seeing doctors because they don't like the lectures. If you don't see a doctor, you're not likely to be diagnosed with something.

My father-in-law didn't smoke, and he had two years of extensive treatment prior because he went to the doctor religiously and had treatment for everything under the sun.

My aunt who smoked, wasn't diagnosed with lung cancer till only a month before her death, because she refused to see doctors.

Her medical costs were 1/100 of my father in law.

These types of things are not that uncommon.

The only source for info on this is insurance companies.
Do you believe everything they say.

	27-01-2005 00:32									#93
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Here's a question: You're a smoker, are you going to avoid going to the doctor?

	27-01-2005 00:33									#94
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Yes, I do. It's not good. But I am guilty of it also.

So maybe there's some truth in what i say.

	27-01-2005 00:43									#95
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Such people who do not care for their health are probably not very fit to work for a health care company...

	27-01-2005 01:15									#96
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quote: Originally posted by rah Yes, I do. It's not good. But I am guilty of it also. So maybe there's some truth in what i say.

But that makes you a greater liability in the eyes of an insurance company, you know. That's why most insurance companies require their people to have yearly check ups. Prevantative medicine is far less costly for them in the long run than just hoping smokers won't go see a doctor.

While many smokers may avoid doctors, the enormous costs of treating the ones who do not and who have cancer or other health problems more than makes up for any such issue. Cancer medicine costs are quite enormous.

You may not go to the doctor now, but if 10 years from now you discover you have lung cancer and get treated for it under your insurance plan, the costs of that treatment will quickly and easily negate any "savings" done by your not seeing a doctor regularly today. It will likely make the healthcare costs of your wife and children look like small potatoes.

	27-01-2005 01:22									#97
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quote: Such people who do not care for their health are probably not very fit to work for a health care company...

Hey!!!!!!!!!

I agree with Rah

What if a company didn't want to hire ppl with families, because it costs more to cover their dependents than it would if they were single?

Would kind of have to suck to remedy that problem now.

	27-01-2005 01:28									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Japher What if a company didn't want to hire ppl with families, because it costs more to cover their dependents than it would if they were single? Would kind of have to suck to remedy that problem now.

If it's a private company in an at-will state, why the hell not?

Private organizations have been allowed to discriminate forever, it's just a bigger issue now that it's targetting a fairly large part of the population at one company.

1) Smoking is stupid. Stupid.
2) The company gave 2 years notice and provided assistance in getting smokers to quit -- the majority did quit
3) Smoking is very, very stupid.
4) Smoking is a personal choice
5) Smoking is known to drastically increase rates for cancer, which is incredibly expensive to treat
6) More expensive treatments made by a stupid decision will raise insurance premiums
7) Companies are, in effect, increasing the cost of paying for health care as a result of their employee's stupid decision
8) In an at-will state, the company should therefore be able to terminate employees who are increasing their cost through stupid decisions.

	27-01-2005 01:34									#99
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quote: And the health cost thing may be a smoke screen.

Yep, I speculated that myself. Just some reason to perhaps justify the decision. Probably just they don't like smokers. As I said, you can charge smokers more with a bone fide welfare program.

	27-01-2005 01:50									#100
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1) Overeating is stupid. Stupid.
2) For two year people went on diets and then gained the weight back
3) Overeating is very, very stupid.
4) Overeating is a personal choice
5) Overeating is known to drastically increase rates for heart attacks, which is incredibly expensive to treat
6) More expensive treatments made by a stupid decision will raise insurance premiums
7) Companies are, in effect, increasing the cost of paying for health care as a result of their employee's stupid decision
8) In an at-will state, the company should therefore be able to terminate employees who are increasing their cost through stupid decisions.

And you can substitute other words too like drinking. Unless you do it to all, it's discriminating.

I've read that it's more expensive to treat black females during their lifetime. I guess it would be OK to fire them too.

And as I stated, it's not always more expensive, they live shorter.

I've tried to quit many times, but have never made it over two months. Trying patches, drugs, hypnotism. If you think that's totally choice once started, you're just ignorant. But we already knew that.

	27-01-2005 01:52									#101
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While we're at it lets just not allow women to work at all.

I mean it.

You hire them. They get pregnant and go on leave for 4 months, and you still have to pay them!? Then, they decide they don't want to work, they want to stay home and take care of the baby... Yet, you just paid them to have a kid!!!

	27-01-2005 11:30									#102
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I hear all this talk about smokers and insurance I know first hand experience that insurance doesnt cover smoking cesssation materials and yet they preach the quit smoking s*** !!! F*** for all my money and aggrevation it seems easier to just light the dam cig and go on with life. Hell after a 6 hour surgery and standing opn my feet listening to a whiney ass doc I need that smoke. Not to mention A few cold beers to relax.

	27-01-2005 11:56									#103
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While we are at it, let's fire all women since they get a lot of breast cancer, Motorcyclists because they get a lot of head injuries, and gays because they are gay.

At-will state remember.

Part of those "higher healthcare costs" are the result of the companies themselves.

Think about it:

We want our building to be non-smoking, so let's make all the smokers, who increase our healthcare costs go out into the 0 degree weather to smoke their cigarettes.

That will lower costs, since inclement weather is good for you.

ACK!

	27-01-2005 12:12									#104
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Yeah I know I catch a Cold every winter since I want to smoke and have to go outside and its 28 degrees and snowing. I do have respect for non smokers too I try to not smoke around them. But on that same note do they show any token of gratitude hell no .

	27-01-2005 12:15									#105
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You know baby, you could have just leaned over and told me that.



ACK!

	27-01-2005 12:19									#106
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This is absurd

Here is how is SHOULD have been handled:

1) All NEW HIARS should be told up front they cannot get a job if they are smokers

2) All EXISTING employees who were hired before this rule went into effect, should be given amnesty from this rule

3) Existing employees who are smokers should be given help to quit smoking if they ask for it.

But doing this AFTER THE FACT is BS.

I personally hate drugs, alcohol, and smoking.

But companies should help their employees kick the habit, not fire them.

It's their means of earning a living.

Nothing makes me more angry than stupid managers that take out cost cutting measures on their employees.

Stop offereing free coffee or something. Install energy saving light timers. But don't freaking punk on your own people.

	27-01-2005 12:23									#107
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Smokers are always discriminated against beccause of this crap non smokers have against 2nd hand smoke. If all of the business fire all of their smoking employees their is gonna be a sh** load of ppl unemployed.

	27-01-2005 12:26									#108
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That's a good point Mrs. T.


You know obesity is like just as costly on our healthcare system as smoking is. And in fact I would say probably more since it is widespread.

So what are we gonna do next, fire all the obese people?

Unforunatley that's not gonna work, we would have to start importing about 200 million foreign workers.

	27-01-2005 12:32									#109
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Mrs. T.? That makes me:




I PITY THE FOOL THAT FIRES ME FOR SMOKIN'!!!!!!

ACK!

	27-01-2005 12:33									#110
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Course Im still forced to the dreaded smoking area in the basement next to the trash and in winter where its freezing cold to indulge in my nasty habit that makes most ppl go EWWWWWWWWWWWWWW get away like i have the plague or something.

	27-01-2005 12:36									#111
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I must say this though In Texas the state is a right to work state. The company can fire you for not liking your t shirt color. But there is unemployment comp they have to pay for if they do that.

	27-01-2005 12:56									#112
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quote: Originally posted by rah What I find funny is that most everyone hates or distrusts insurance companies, but have no problem believing this because they're not smokers. So the whole thing stinks.

I am not an actuary, and I don't think you are. Therefore we don't have access to the actual stat data. Thus, we can't tell if they are right or not.

	27-01-2005 14:06									#113
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smokers will just do what many do at home - pretend they gave up and become smoking fugitives

	27-01-2005 15:12									#114
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• Medical costs attributable to smoking comprise
6 to 9% of the total national healthcare budget.8
• Every pack of cigarettes sold creates more than
$7 in medical care expenses and lost productivity.3
• For every smoker who quits, $1,623 is saved
annually in healthcare costs alone.9
• Smokers tend to have more hospital admissions,
take longer to recover from illness and injury,
have higher outpatient healthcare costs, and
have lower birthweight babies


http://www.wmitchell.edu/tobaccolaw.../HealthCare.pdf


ted---then how happy do you think the new workers are going to be when the old worders get to take 4 15 minute smoke breaks a day, and the new workers end up working 5 hours more each week???

	27-01-2005 15:43									#115
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those breaks are work - non smokers are jealous of smoker networking

	27-01-2005 16:02									#116
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In the UK smokers pay loads more in tax than they get back in healthcare:

quote: Tobacco duty currently raises £8.1 billion, Mr Warburton said, citing figures from Gordon Brown's Budget. He calculated that a 15pc fall in the number of smokers would deprive the Government of £1.2 billion in duty, £300m in VAT and £300m in corporation tax based on an estimated fall in tobacco companies' profits. Mr Warburton said: "The British Medical Association says that smoking-related illnesses cost the NHS £1.7 billion a year, so a 15pc reduction in smoking could save £250m, although this would take several years to feed through."

http://money.telegraph.co.uk/money/.../23/cnban23.xml

	27-01-2005 16:20									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse smokers will just do what many do at home - pretend they gave up and become smoking fugitives

I think you missed this part :

quote: Four employees of a health care company have been fired for refusing to take a test to determine whether they smoke cigarettes.

	27-01-2005 16:25									#118
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I love hearing smokers whine about being an oppressed group. Sort of makes up for the one idiot that hangs around and blows smoke when your tring to eat or simply breath. I love to see them huddled around a tree when the wind is blowing or its raining trying to get that one last puff in before they freeze to death. I mean it must be cool to be so dependent upon something that you would huddle around in zero weather because you can't go a freaking day without doing. And inhailing smoke is just the coolest. So many people run from a building that is full of smoke. What idiots they must be to pass on the chance of inhailing all that smoke. I say tripple the price of cigs and use the money for something good.

edit: forget about tripling it. They should raise it every year just to see how much a person is willing to pay for a pack. 5$ 10$ 15$ It could be fun.

	27-01-2005 16:50									#119
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Just do what the UK does and annually increase the duty on packs of cigs. Like MikeH said, we gain far more than we spend (even though I do support an Ireland style ban on smoking in public).

At last check, packs of 20 were selling in the offy I worked at for £4.85. That's over $10 per pack.

	27-01-2005 16:54									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Starchild Just do what the UK does and annually increase the duty on packs of cigs. Like MikeH said, we gain far more than we spend (even though I do support an Ireland style ban on smoking in public). At last check, packs of 20 were selling in the offy I worked at for £4.85. That's over $10 per pack.

Raise it more. I want to see how much a smoker is willing to pay for them.