26-01-2005 23:49									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Mr. Nice Guy Herresson, have you seen The Passion of the Christ?

I have. Funny movie.

Even if late medieval passion plays remotely resembled reality, I have full faith in humanity being able to exceed that by a large margin.

	26-01-2005 23:49									#32
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quote: Originally posted by lightblue I'd prefer crucifixion over say burning at the stake or drawing and quartering tbh.

Jesus was more than just crucified.

	26-01-2005 23:50									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Mr. Nice Guy It's forensic evidence.

Which in no way proves or disproves that the Jesus had superpowers.

	26-01-2005 23:52									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Mr. Nice Guy If you want to know exactly what I'm talking about just watch The Passion of the Christ. That movie is closer to the realities surrounding the death of Christ than other movie made about the death of Christ that has ever been made. It WILL SHOCK you!

Horrifying yes,
as it involves a lot of suffering
and also took a long time.

But the most horrifying death of all deaths?
I doubt so.

Mankind has been very creative concerning deaths.

The Japanese for example had some criminals boil in oil.
Another not uncommon method there was,
to bury a criminal until only his head and neck stuck out of the earth (and the criminal of course couldn´t move, because the rest of the body stuck in earth).
Then they would lay a Bamboosaw next to the buried criminal and every passer was invited to saw at the neck of the criminal.
The criminal usually stayed alive for several days until the loss of blood from the cuts made with the saw killed him or he just died of thirst.

Also Jesus wasn´t the only person in history who was tortured before being brought to executuion.

	26-01-2005 23:54									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Mr. Nice Guy Jesus was more than just crucified.

Yes, he was wipped and made to wear a crown of thorns. Of course, there were people drawn and quartered, burned to death, have their hearts cut out, and plenty of people have been tortured for a fair amount of time before being put out of their misery. Hence, Jesus's death, even if we accept as depicted, is not particularly gory nor memorable.

Now, if he had had his eyes gouged out by hot pokers, then his tounge cut off, strips of his skin cut off and salt rubbed in the wounds, then be castrated, and THEN crucified-well, then MAYBE your claim wuld have some validity.

	26-01-2005 23:54									#36
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quote: Originally posted by St Leo Even if late medieval passion plays remotely resembled reality, I have full faith in humanity being able to exceed that by a large margin.

But the real question is, are there any records in history of anyone suffering a death that was more horrifying than the death of Christ, especially execution records?

Of course, wether Christ really suffered more than any other person in history is a matter of opinion.

	26-01-2005 23:55									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Mr. Nice Guy Jesus was more than just crucified.

Well, according to Gibson, he was also whipped, made to carry heavy things, and poked with a sharp stick.

Oh, and don't forget the emotional damage from being renounced by Peter. Oh, that dastardly Peter.

	26-01-2005 23:57									#38
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quote: Originally posted by St Leo Which in no way proves or disproves that the Jesus had superpowers.

That's not my point. The shroud shows forensic evidence of exactly how the person died, which is consistent with the details of how Christ was killed.

	26-01-2005 23:59									#39
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Christ took on the sins of the world

while the physical suffering was pretty significant

the spiritual suffering was worse

I beleive

Jon Miller

	27-01-2005 00:01									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller Christ took on the sins of the world while the physical suffering was pretty significant the spiritual suffering was worse I beleive

I second that.

	27-01-2005 00:04									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Mr. Nice Guy Exactly. That puts the shroud well within the time of Jesus's death. So, the shroud could be the cloth that was wrapped around the body of Christ.

WOW! a piece of cloth that can either be 1000 years older than Jesus, or 700 years younger. The skeptics are silenced!

	27-01-2005 00:07									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Heresson But Jesus was crucificed by people for preaching love.

Errr... where and when was he accused of preaching love?

	27-01-2005 00:09									#43
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Out of curiosity, what exactly is meant by the "sins of the world"? Is it "guilt"? Most sins aren't especially unpleasant on their own.

	27-01-2005 00:09									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris WOW! a piece of cloth that can either be 1000 years older than Jesus, or 700 years younger. The skeptics are silenced!

Well, the doubt surrounding wether or not the shroud is authentically the burial cloth of Christ has been diminished.

There will always be skeptics because some people will always be skeptical about something they cannot see or touch. Then of course there always those who don't believe that Christ even existed at all.

	27-01-2005 00:11									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Errr... where and when was he accused of preaching love?

To rephrase Oncle's point, the preaching of love was not what he was crucified for.

	27-01-2005 00:12									#46
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quote: Originally posted by St Leo Out of curiosity, what exactly is meant by the "sins of the world"? Is it "guilt"? Most sins aren't especially unpleasant on their own.

All sins have consequences. All sins hurt the sinner and/or someone else wether one realizes it or not.

	27-01-2005 00:14									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Mr. Nice Guy But the real question is, are there any records in history of anyone suffering a death that was more horrifying than the death of Christ, especially execution records? Of course, wether Christ really suffered more than any other person in history is a matter of opinion.

Records? You know, I would have to guess yes even without knowing about it. Are there records of the death of Jesus?

Opinions are easily influenced by graphic emotional "art" it seems.

	27-01-2005 00:14									#48
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quote: Originally posted by St Leo To rephrase Oncle's point, the preaching of love was not what he was crucified for.

Right. He was crucified for proclaiming to be the King of the Jews, which according to Jewish law is blasphemy, for which the punishment was death.

	27-01-2005 00:14									#49
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The skeptics were yet sure that the cloth can not be original, that it is younger than Jesus.
As the tradition is that it is the shroud of Jesus,
and there's nothing yet that can be put against it,
You should believe it. And as the shroud is supernatural...

And again: it's not important if Jesus' death was the worse of deaths. It's about a comparison of his personality and the faith He had to face. And that He and Father sacrificed Him for the salvation of us all.

	27-01-2005 00:16									#50
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quote: Originally posted by tinyp3nis Are there records of the death of Jesus?

Yes, the Gospels themselves are eyewitness accounts of the birth, life, death and ressurection of Christ.

	27-01-2005 00:19									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Mr. Nice Guy Yes, the Gospels themselves are eyewitness accounts of the birth, life, death and ressurection of Christ.

I don't think we have the same definition of records. I'm not talking about vinyl here.

	27-01-2005 00:20									#52
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If you believe that they weren't brushed up and exaggerated since...

	27-01-2005 00:20									#53
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quote: Originally posted by tinyp3nis Wasn't there a lot of cloth around any given year back some thousands of years ago? You know, for people to cover themselves? Just find a piece that is 2k year old and say it's his.

Traditional Jews wear a large 4 cornered, fringed, piece of cloth called a tallit (tallis in the ashkenazic pronunciation) while praying. It is often of linen, though it need not be. Traditionally the full sized one was worn only by married men. Among Conservative Jews all adult Jews may wear them. Adolescent boys (and in Conservative Synagogues today, girls) wear small prayer shawls, also called tallit. Since they dont wear them before Bar Mitzvah, its traditionally presented on that occasion. Hand made, and silk ones are often given on this special occasion.

Another ritual garment is a large white robe called a kittel worn by men on Yom Kippur and on their wedding. Its traditional to be buried in it.

Im not sure the age of either of these traditions, but the reference to wearing a fringed garment goes back to the laws of Moses.

	27-01-2005 00:21									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Indeed. Of course, it is perfectly possible the cloth itself was made in ancient times. That doesn't tell us when the image that appears was put on the cloth. How hard would it have been for someone to break into an old tomb, steal a burial shroud and then put an image on it? At the time the shroud appeared in Europe, there was a "relic mania" going on where merchants were selling purported pieces of the cross, shrouds, bones, etc. At one point, according to church documents, there were at least a dozen purported shrouds making the rounds on the continent, enough pieces of the "true cross" to make a cabin and enough bones of disciples to make an army of giants.

My understanding of the Turin shroud was that it was genuine and not just 'an image', in the sense that someone was murdered and wrapped in the cloth in the manner described in the bible. That is not to say its Jesus or anyone from his time period, the murder likely happened in the 13-14th century and the shroud was designed to be the 'ultimate' relic as it would be as close to authentic as possible.

	27-01-2005 00:21									#55
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quote: Originally posted by lightblue If you believe that they weren't brushed up and exaggerated since...

Nice conspiracy theory, but no dice cumberbund.

	27-01-2005 00:24									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Dauphin My understanding of the Turin shroud was that it was genuine and not just 'an image', in the sense that someone was murdered and wrapped in the cloth in the manner described in the bible. That is not to say its Jesus or anyone from his time period, the murder likely happened in the 13-14th century and the shroud was designed to be the 'ultimate' relic as it would be as close to authentic as possible.

Eh eh um. Have you completly missed the story about the new evidence found that I posted in the first post of this thread?

	27-01-2005 00:26									#57
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quote: Originally posted by St Leo Out of curiosity, what exactly is meant by the "sins of the world"? Is it "guilt"? Most sins aren't especially unpleasant on their own.

no

sin seperates you from God, spiritually

sins of the world is all the sin, the seperation, of humanity from it's God

so Christ had all the sin, the spiritual seperation, that all of humanity (from the relatively benign Mother Terresa to Adolph Hitler) has ever or will ever experience (guilt probably relates to feeling bad over this spiritual seperation)

now most of us, are to some degree or another, dulled to the feeling of seperation from God, because we have never been close to Him

Christ was, however, was in constant communication with God (prayed all the time, so on and so forth)

so that was really terrible

I am not very good at communication, I am sorry

basically there is spiritual pain, just like there is emotional pain and physical pain (and maybe even mental pain which you can get from watching the simple life possibly)

this idea is not found only in Christianity, but it is key to Christianity

Jon Miller

	27-01-2005 00:28									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Mr. Nice Guy Yes, the Gospels themselves are eyewitness accounts of the birth, life, death and ressurection of Christ.

Ah, no, they were all writen about 60-70 years after his supposed death- if they were eye witness accounts by contemporaries, they should not be so different and vary on basic facts.

	27-01-2005 00:29									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Mr. Nice Guy Yes, the Gospels themselves are eyewitness accounts of the birth, life, death and ressurection of Christ.

actually most gospels (except John) don't claim to be eyewitness to anything

and even John only claims to be an eyewitness to some of the life and death of Christ

What the Gospels seem to claim is that they are relating the story as taken from eyewitnesses (and within a couple steps is what most scholars think)

so pretty close, close enough for me

Jon Miller

	27-01-2005 00:31									#60
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Ah, no, they were all writen about 60-70 years after his supposed death- if they were eye witness accounts by contemporaries, they should not be so different and vary on basic facts.

closer to 30-60, I think (we know that the oldest it could be is ~80 years after)

but yah, when the people who would remember Christ were getting really old (and many had died)

Jon Miller