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techumseh
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of the frozen North.
Apr 1999
time: 22:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Nice Guy
You know what. These cheapshots people are taking at me are really getting boring.  |
Well, if you want to make things more interesting, simply state the evidence or, if you prefer, the reasons for your views, eg: quote:
Yes, the Gospels themselves are eyewitness accounts of the birth, life, death and ressurection of Christ. |
It's not good enough to say: "Read this article." "Watch this movie." "Read this book, which I don't have right now, but the relevant pages are 19 - 110."
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Nice Guy
Does anyone here know what means to scourge someone? Think in ancient terms now. |
I do, and I'm thinking it's infinitely preferable to having to go through one of these threads again.
Your assertion that Jesus's death was more horrible than any other in history shows a startling level of ignorance about ways to die, the history of torture, or even the history of judicial executions.
I suggest you do some serious research on, say, how individual people experience pain, American murders in the 20th Century, judicial executions in Europe from, oh, 1000 A.D. until the present day, et cetera.
As a starter, you could find out how the man who attempted to assassinate Louis XV was executed. I sincerely doubt Mr Gibson would even be allowed to attempt to film that. The first time I read the account I came close to vomiting, and that was without the aid of Mel's technicolour reproductions.
Rufus- some Buddhists do make a fuss about supposed footprints of Buddha, or a tooth of Buddha and some Muslims equally get excited about supposed hairs of the Prophet, or a cloak of his, and so forth.
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Proteus_MST
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Oh, yes,
in comparison to the execution of Damien even the methods of the japanese (which I mentioned earlier in this thread) pale 
Here a transcript from the court:
quote:
When this will be done, he will be taken in the same tipcart to the Place de Grève and will be put on a scaffold. Then his breasts, arms, thighs, and legs will be tortured. While holding the knife with which he committed the said Parricide, his right hand will be burnt. On his tortured body parts, melted lead, boiling oil, burning pitch, and melted wax and sulfur will be thrown. Then four horses will pull him apart until he is dismembered
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Taken from:
http://chnm.gmu.edu/revolution/d/242/
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:28
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
People couldn't paint until modern times? |
Quite. Not only could they paint, they could also produce forgeries and fakes.
Heron of Alexandria could harness steam power, and alchemists were really rather sophisticated and ingenious given the limitations of their times.
Ancient fakes include a stone cruciform monument from Sippar, purporting to be from the reign of Manishtushu (known as a pious fraud, given that it is believed to have been perpetrated by temple priests to establish the great age of their temple and its revenues, to reinforce the temple's and priest's claims- mmm, sounds familiar....)
The Shabaka stone of the Nubian pharaoh of the same name, the Epistles of Phalaris, and then mediaeval forgeries by monks of course- the Decretals of Isidore, spurious Royal writs of English and Norman kings and the supposed Letter of Christ to Abgar.
People will believe what they desire to believe, and those people with a profit (prophet?) motive will make money from this.
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Jon Miller
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Not one of the authors of the Gospels witnessed Jeshua's birth, his life, nor his crucifiction. They were all written well after his death. |
just because they were written after His death does not make it true that none of the authors witnessed anything
for everything but the latest possible dates for writing the gospels it is possible that they were written by someone who had seen it in their youth
Jon Miller
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Jon Miller
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and the writers could all definitely talk to people who had seen Jesus (even at the latest dates)
Jon Miller
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Jon Miller
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well, yes
what is wrong with that?
he doesn't know it is correct or not either
I am just pointing out that it isn't known
you do that with all sort of things, including this shroud of turin thing (yuo don't know whether it is correct or not, but you argue with Mr Nice Guy about it)
it is part of being critical, which is a key piece of enlightenment thought
Jon Miller
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Jon Miller
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in otherwords
I did what any other self-respecting intellectual would do
so stop being an ass
Jon Miller
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Boris Godunov
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Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Heresson
As I've written before, the technique that would have to be needed to put this picture onto the shroud was not available in Middle Ages. |
You have no way of knowing that.
quote:
This shroud is known since then, and is probably the same as Mandillion, an image of Christ (story of St Veronica etc), originally at Edessa (Sanliurfa today), later captured by Byzantines during their reconquista and led to Constantinople, from where it disappeared during IV crusade - some time before the shroud is witnessed in Western Europe... |
This nothing more than utter speculation. As I said, multitudes of "shrouds" were roaming the Mediterranean region for centuries.
quote:
And then, people did not care for such details as modern forgers would. |
And this is nonsense. Joe Nickell wrote a great article on medeival iconography that showed how artists of the time were often extremely meticulous in detail.
Moreover, the image on the shroud is much more akin to medeival art than it is to an actual human image. The head is disproportionately large for the body, the face overly long and the forehead overly bulbous. If this where the image of a real person, he would have had to have had an obviously distorted head.
Also, the image is not congruous at all with a piece of cloth wrapped around a body. Were such to be the case, the image should be distorted width-wise, much like the distortions in a world map that stretch out Greenland (putting a 3D spherical surface onto a 2D surface). So the shroud image could not be the result of something wrapped in it transferring an image to the cloth.
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Heresson
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of frogs
Jun 2000
time: 06:28
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
People couldn't paint until modern times?
It's not relavent. The fact that the shroud could be that old in no way proves it is what is claimed, i.e., that it is the burial shroud of Jeshua ben Joseph. Next, you have the problem that the image is made of paint. |
I've heard it is not.
quote:
Surely the relevant points are: The Vatican/organized church is hardly a newbie when it comes to falsifying evidence- the Donation of Constantine being a prime case.
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But it was not a falsyfication of a matter of faith...
And no-one claims it is true today.
quote:
I've read a book that seriously claimed that the Turin Shroud was a hoax made by Leonardo Da Vinci
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1) - 
2) - the shroud and the picture on it is much much older than Leonardo.
quote:
Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly
This is an honest question, or couple of questions:
Do other religions put this kind of emphasis on substantiating the reality of their stories? AFAIK, Jews aren't running around looking for the staff of Moses; Buddhists haven't made a fetishistic shrine out of the original tree under which Buddha achieved enlightenment; Hindu temples do not contain Actual Nail Clippings from the Many Fingers of Vishnu. The only other religion I know of that puts this kind of emphasis on its own historical/material basis is, interestingly enough, Islam.
Why is that? |
Is it so, or we just don't know anything about it because we're living in different cultural area?
Also, some of this may come from that Jesus and Muhammad are historical figures, unlike Hindu gods.
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27-01-2005 09:08
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