27-01-2005 00:32									#61
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Ah, no, they were all writen about 60-70 years after his supposed death- if they were eye witness accounts by contemporaries, they should not be so different and vary on basic facts.

Gepap,

Recommended Reading: "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel.

The evidence really shows that the Gospels began to be written only about 2 years after Christ's death.

	27-01-2005 00:35									#62
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that is sort of the extreme other side

somewhere in between sceptics (60-70, 80 at the latest) and the other end (right after...) is probably correct

I, for example, no longer think that Mathew was written by a disciple, although I think that John was

and I also think that Mathew, Mark, and Luke were created from an early source in combination with talking to eyewitnesses and the like

if you think about it, Paul didn't even see Jesus before His Death

Jon Miller

	27-01-2005 00:40									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Mr. Nice Guy Eh eh um. Have you completly missed the story about the new evidence found that I posted in the first post of this thread?

No, but I don't see that tentative evidence as changing the basic premise that it was murder with the intent to produce a relic for the faithful.

	27-01-2005 00:45									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Dauphin No, but I don't see that tentative evidence as changing the basic premise that it was murder with the intent to produce a relic for the faithful.

Nice conspiracy theory, but no dice cumberbund.

	27-01-2005 00:48									#65
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I'd love it if it was Jesus' shroud, I just don't believe that it is.

	27-01-2005 00:55									#66
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honestly?

neither do I

Jon Miller

	27-01-2005 00:57									#67
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A conspiracy theory that can not be proven neither disproven really is nothing but an empty conspiracy theory.

	27-01-2005 01:20									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Heresson And Boris, the technique needed to put such an image on the shroud was not possible until modern times.

We had this argument before, and this is simply not necessarily true. In fact, I had linked to a website where a guy made a "shroud" using techniques easily available to people in the late middle ages, and it was indistinguishable in form from the actual shroud (meaning while the image looked different, microscopic analysis was identical).

	27-01-2005 01:20									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Mr. Nice Guy A conspiracy theory that can not be proven neither disproven really is nothing but an empty conspiracy theory.

Well the theory that the shroud is genuine canīt be proven either.
So itīs all the same,
those who want to believe that itīs the shroud of Jesus will continue to believe
and those continue to believe otherwise

	27-01-2005 01:22									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Mr. Nice Guy A conspiracy theory that can not be proven neither disproven really is nothing but an empty conspiracy theory.

Christianity is what? Huh?

	27-01-2005 01:28									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Proteus_MST Well the theory that the shroud is genuine canīt be proven either. So itīs all the same, those who want to believe that itīs the shroud of Jesus will continue to believe and those continue to believe otherwise

Well, at least there is evidence that it's the shroud of Jesus, even though it's not conclusive.

	27-01-2005 01:28									#72
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quote: Originally posted by tinyp3nis Christianity is what? Huh?

Smartellic.

	27-01-2005 01:29									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Heresson The skeptics were yet sure that the cloth can not be original, that it is younger than Jesus. As the tradition is that it is the shroud of Jesus, and there's nothing yet that can be put against it, You should believe it. And as the shroud is supernatural...

Again, there's nothing among skeptics that hinges on the cloth itself not being old. There's no reason to think that an image wasn't put onto an old cloth.

There's no evidence of any supernatural powers at work here, so I don't see why we should believe anything.

	27-01-2005 01:56									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Mr. Nice Guy Gepap, Recommended Reading: "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel. The evidence really shows that the Gospels began to be written only about 2 years after Christ's death.

Biblical scholars (as opposed to evangelical propagandists) suggest that the the gospels were written between 70 and 100 AD, by people who had not witnessed the ministry of Jesus. As they were originally circulated anonymously, the real authors (and their real names) are unknown.

Even so, they make a somewhat better foundation for an argument than Mel Gibson's movie.

	27-01-2005 02:51									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Again, there's nothing among skeptics that hinges on the cloth itself not being old. There's no reason to think that an image wasn't put onto an old cloth. There's no evidence of any supernatural powers at work here, so I don't see why we should believe anything.

As I've written before, the technique that would have to be needed to put this picture onto the shroud was not available in Middle Ages. This shroud is known since then, and is probably the same as Mandillion, an image of Christ (story of St Veronica etc), originally at Edessa (Sanliurfa today), later captured by Byzantines during their reconquista and led to Constantinople, from where it disappeared during IV crusade - some time before the shroud is witnessed in Western Europe...

In another words: the picture on the shroud is at least 700 years old, likely more than 1500. And then, people did not care for such details as modern forgers would.

	27-01-2005 03:37									#76
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quote: Originally posted by techumseh Biblical scholars (as opposed to evangelical propagandists) suggest that the the gospels were written between 70 and 100 AD, by people who had not witnessed the ministry of Jesus. As they were originally circulated anonymously, the real authors (and their real names) are unknown. Even so, they make a somewhat better foundation for an argument than Mel Gibson's movie.

You should read The Case for Christ. I think you'll be quite surprised at what you'll find.

	27-01-2005 04:17									#77
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If you don't mind saving me the trouble, why don't you cite his most relevant evidence regarding the existence of Jesus, and the authenticity and validity of the gospels? I'd be much obliged.

	27-01-2005 04:39									#78
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quote: Originally posted by techumseh If you don't mind saving me the trouble, why don't you cite his most relevant evidence regarding the existence of Jesus, and the authenticity and validity of the gospels? I'd be much obliged.

I would, but I don't have the book with me. I borrowed it from a friend and read it, but now I've returned it to him.

Besides, the book full of evidence from cover to cover and I wouldn't classify any of it as the more relevant than any other evidence presented in the book.

If I were you, I'd go and check it out at your local library. And btw, much of the evidence regarding the authenticity and validity of the gospels in presented in Part 1 of the book: Pages 19-110.

	27-01-2005 04:42									#79
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Arguments based on a single source are poor ones, as you work under the assumption the author presented everything correctly, or fairly, without self-serving acts.

A bad assumption certainly.

	27-01-2005 04:45									#80
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Arguments based on a single source are poor ones, as you work under the assumption the author presented everything correctly, or fairly, without self-serving acts. A bad assumption certainly.

HA!

Then also read a book with a competing philosophy and decide for yourself if you really want to learn something.

	27-01-2005 04:59									#81
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Is that idol really important? What's the difference between the shroud of Turin and other idols?

Yet another gadget for the weak in faith to worship.

	27-01-2005 05:06									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Mr. Nice Guy A conspiracy theory that can not be proven neither disproven really is nothing but an empty conspiracy theory.

You mean, like the one stating that there is an all-knowing, all powerful entity? I agree, it's most certainly empty

	27-01-2005 05:08									#83
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Here is one right here: The Case Against Christianity

This is a book, written by Michael Martin (an atheist), that Lee Strobel actually mentions and criticizes in The Case For Christ.

Would it not be fun to read about an Atheist and a Christian making their cases for and against Christianity?

	27-01-2005 05:10									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor You mean, like the one stating that there is an all-knowing, all powerful entity? I agree, it's most certainly empty

There's another smartellic remark. You sound like tinyp3nis!

	27-01-2005 05:28									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Mr. Nice Guy There's another smartellic remark. You sound like tinyp3nis!

You are eager to dismiss the claims that religious symbols have been manipulated by the secular needs (political power) of the Church. You consider these claims to be conspiracies theories, and empty ones at that because they cannot be proven.

However, you adamantly defend the claim that there is a God whose son is Jesus, knowing full well these claims cannot be proven.

I can understand that your faith leads to have double standards. But you shouldn't use arguments like "conspiracy theory" evey time somebody points out that the Church had something to win by manipulating religious symbols. It certainly doesn't add to your ability to convince others.

	27-01-2005 05:31									#86
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So what the scientists are saying is that C14 dating works just fine in its effective range but that the previous sample came from a piece of patching naterial and not from the original faberic. The new date still says this is a fake just an older fake.

	27-01-2005 06:14									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor You are eager to dismiss the claims that religious symbols have been manipulated by the secular needs (political power) of the Church. You consider these claims to be conspiracies theories, and empty ones at that because they cannot be proven. However, you adamantly defend the claim that there is a God whose son is Jesus, knowing full well these claims cannot be proven. I can understand that your faith leads to have double standards. But you shouldn't use arguments like "conspiracy theory" evey time somebody points out that the Church had something to win by manipulating religious symbols. It certainly doesn't add to your ability to convince others.

You know what. These cheapshots people are taking at me are really getting boring.

	27-01-2005 06:15									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin So what the scientists are saying is that C14 dating works just fine in its effective range but that the previous sample came from a piece of patching naterial and not from the original faberic. The new date still says this is a fake just an older fake.

Yeah, put that winky smiley out there, cuz you know it can't be proven nor disproven.

	27-01-2005 06:18									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Mr. Nice Guy You know what. These cheapshots people are taking at me are really getting boring.

I took care to explain my position, precisely because I want it not to be a cheap shot.

But go ahead and continue to rudely dismiss well-meaning advice (or well meaning posts in general). It will result in you only getting cheap shots, and no serious discussion.

	27-01-2005 06:26									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I took care to explain my position, precisely because I want it not to be a cheap shot. But go ahead and continue to rudely dismiss well-meaning advice (or well meaning posts in general). It will result in you only getting cheap shots, and no serious discussion.

No, look. You're trying to change the subject on me. You are wandering into territory that isn't even relevant to the thread.

And by the way, when I was talking about an empty conspiracy theory I was referring to this one:

quote: Originally posted by Dauphin No, but I don't see that tentative evidence as changing the basic premise that it was murder with the intent to produce a relic for the faithful.

Go figure.