03-02-2005 23:25									#271
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Whatever your background, the fact that you believe in something, communism, means you are biased towards it. It means you look for things and interpret them subconciously as supporting it, if they can.

Your background doesn't give you bias, your opinions and beliefs do.

	03-02-2005 23:26									#272
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue So every deal should have enforced equal power? For instance, a child saying "I want that" in a toy shop, when the alternative is fit of crying, is morally wrong, because the child has more bargaining power than the parent?

Ummm... The child does not have more bargaining power.

The whole idea that a deal is fair because two people agree on it needs to be abandoned, because it is obviously false. As far as deals go, I'm a communist so I believe in planning, not exchange.

	03-02-2005 23:27									#273
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue Whatever your background, the fact that you believe in something, communism, means you are biased towards it. It means you look for things and interpret them subconciously as supporting it, if they can. Your background doesn't give you bias, your opinions and beliefs do.

Your wrong. You're saying that we are incapable of being unbiased, or less biased.

	03-02-2005 23:30									#274
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Ummm... The child does not have more bargaining power.

The child is threatening the mother with embarressment and upset in order to get what they want. I'd call that a stronger position.

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious The whole idea that a deal is fair because two people agree on it needs to be abandoned, because it is obviously false. As far as deals go, I'm a communist so I believe in planning, not exchange.

Nobody's said it's fair. We said it's acceptable, and fine, but we're not arguing fairness. To make everything exactly fair would result in everything being bad, as it would be so extremely consuming to make every little thing totally fair that they'd be nothing left to appropriate. No deal is ever fair, as one side always has more bargaining power than the other.

What's planning, not exchange?

	03-02-2005 23:31									#275
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Your wrong. You're saying that we are incapable of being unbiased, or less biased.

You yourself have said we are incapable of being completely unbiased. That is what the definition of biased is though, having a leaning towards something.

	03-02-2005 23:32									#276
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue What's planning, not exchange?

Production and distribution is decided as a whole instead of by individuals.

	03-02-2005 23:36									#277
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By democracy?

	03-02-2005 23:36									#278
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue You yourself have said we are incapable of being completely unbiased. That is what the definition of biased is though, having a leaning towards something.

I lean towards capitalism, because of my background. There is still a tendency for me to support policies and systems that benefit me personally. I see it in myself.

	03-02-2005 23:38									#279
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Clearly you don't. If you are a communist, you lean towards communism. Whatever your background is pushing you towards, your experience/concience/thought is pushing you in the other direction, and that fact you are a communist shows which is stronger.

	03-02-2005 23:39									#280
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue By democracy?

I believe in checks and balances. That's my political preference. As far as economics goes I think incomes should be pretty much equal, planning should be centralized, people should have choices, and goods and services should be produced that serve the public, and not a select few.

	03-02-2005 23:40									#281
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue Clearly you don't. If you are a communist, you lean towards communism. Whatever your background is pushing you towards, your experience/concience/thought is pushing you in the other direction, and that fact you are a communist shows which is stronger.

I don't lean towards communism. I was quite right wing until about the age of 30. I went through something of a crisis in by belief system.

	04-02-2005 00:02									#282
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious You can either work in the system and accept an unfair deal or you can die. That is your choice....

I think this fairly well summarizes communism.

	04-02-2005 00:14									#283
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I think this fairly well summarizes communism.

No, in communism you always get a fair deal because the government tells you it's fair. If you don't think it's fair, you're just plain wrong. And apparently unreasonable.

	04-02-2005 00:34									#284
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Nice

	04-02-2005 00:35									#285
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki No, in communism you always get a fair deal because the government tells you it's fair. If you don't think it's fair, you're just plain wrong. And apparently unreasonable.

And no one tells you your wages are fair now?

	04-02-2005 00:39									#286
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki No, in communism you always get a fair deal because the government tells you it's fair. If you don't think it's fair, you're just plain wrong. And apparently unreasonable.

Also, the people who oppose communism because they may think it is unfair end up dead, usually, or doing hard labor in Siberia. This is exactly what Kid says about capitalism, but it is true of communism.

	04-02-2005 00:40									#287
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious And no one tells you your wages are fair now?

No, as a matter of fact, no one does. I make that determination myself.

	04-02-2005 00:41									#288
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quote: Originally posted by Ned This is exactly what Kid says about capitalism

That depends on what society you live in and how paranoid the powers that be get.

	04-02-2005 00:42									#289
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki No, as a matter of fact, no one does. I make that determination myself.

So if I determine that wages are fair in a communist system that means that no one has told me that they are, even if they have?

	04-02-2005 00:44									#290
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious That depends on what society you live in and how paranoid the powers that be get.

Paranoid?

	04-02-2005 01:21									#291
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious So if I determine that wages are fair in a communist system that means that no one has told me that they are, even if they have?

Is this supposed to make sense?

	04-02-2005 01:30									#292
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Flubber, Why do I have to explain simple things to you over and over again. You can either work in the system and accept an unfair deal or you can die. That is your choice. I don't feel any need to keep explaining that.

The problem is that I reject almost everything in the statement

1. you can not participate in the capitalist system in any number of ways and not die. Its a social welfare system and it would feed you even as you spit upon it. Or go to another country . . or buy cheap land in the boonies and form a commune

2. Nobody has ever forced ANY deal on me. The closest is a union envrionment where there was a mandated "fair wage" but I was free to accept or reject it. Death was never a consideration.

3. If you don't like an offered deal, negotiate better or move or get better skills--- Atechnical person in the oil patch makes over 1K a day--- My sympathy is pretty limited.

	04-02-2005 01:35									#293
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I believe in checks and balances. That's my political preference. As far as economics goes I think incomes should be pretty much equal, planning should be centralized, people should have choices, and goods and services should be produced that serve the public, and not a select few.

Blahblahblah " from each according to their ability and to each according to their needs " blah blah

	04-02-2005 01:37									#294
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious And no one tells you your wages are fair now?

Nope not a soul


What they do is a salary survey of the market and show how pay is at "market rates"

Nobody ever even utters the word "fair"

	04-02-2005 01:38									#295
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious So if I determine that wages are fair in a communist system that means that no one has told me that they are, even if they have?

I , too, have no idea what this means.

	04-02-2005 01:44									#296
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Oh and kid

while your background might be one of a person normally biased in favor of capitalism, you are apparently quite biased in favor of communism.

While my roots might be a little more modest, I accept readily that I am biased against communism . But I remain willing to listen and learn. If you have read my posts you will know I have never been in favor of unrestricted capitalism and I quite like a solid social safety net.

I see government as more than an economic system and am willing to accept the cost of assisting the less fortunate. With that comes assisting the lazy and the addicts and some of the welfare abusers. We accept that.

I just think you should measure capitalism by what it "is" good and bad points alike and not by what some theoretical model used to say it should be.

Last edited by Flubber on 04-02-2005 at 02:16

	04-02-2005 02:45									#297
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Paranoid?

I'm sorry. I can't have a serious conversation with someone about human rights who supports Shrub. I'm starting to see why people don't talk to you when you get like this.

	04-02-2005 02:47									#298
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber Nobody ever even utters the word "fair"

They clearly do. If you don't mind I would like this converation to be over now. So go and tell me how I won't support my arguments and answer your questions and we can both be done with it.

	04-02-2005 02:54									#299
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious They clearly do. If you don't mind I would like this converation to be over now. So go and tell me how I won't support my arguments and answer your questions and we can both be done with it.

Are you holding a grudge? I haven't said that for at least a day or so

But

1. "They clearly do" is not much of a refutation when I explained how salaries are talked about. Nobody mentions fairness -- its all about market price

2. Any time you want our "conversations" to be over, you can just stop responding to me-- you have in the past whenever I hurt your feelings. I will post or not post whenever the mood hits

3. I don't think I have asked you a direct question in ages so any commentary on non-response or the irrationality of your statements would likely be rooted in your responses to others

	04-02-2005 04:01									#300
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I'm sorry. I can't have a serious conversation with someone about human rights who supports Shrub. I'm starting to see why people don't talk to you when you get like this.

Kid, let me put it this way: I am not just biased against socialism or communism, I am hostile to them. Socialism and communism have a record of extreme oppression of peoples. Communist propaganda says that capitalism is oppression. Communists lie when they say that they "liberate people." What they do is enslave people. It is the likes of America who free people, and allow them to breathe freely, to live and to raise their children with hope and prosperity. It is the Communists who bring oppression, misery and death to civilization, even while calling it "paradise."

There is no serious debate with a person who favors totalitarianism and oppression. One should simply state the truth about such evil, and condemn it. The great fight of liberty that America has long represented would be besmirched beyond hope if we did not fight your kind.

Long live liberty and freedom!