02-02-2005 06:02									#211
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist Normally not. But if the coherent theory is wrong, doing so could not possibly worsen anything.

I think you have a duty to prove it's wrong instead of just pushing an incoherent theory onto people.

quote: I believe that if two competent parties, both fully aware of all relevant circumstances, argree to any deal, that deal cannot possibly be unfair. From your earlier posts, you'd disagree violently with this, so I do not expect to find any common ground here.

The subject matter is a discussion on whether or not that is the case.

	02-02-2005 06:05									#212
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I think you have a duty to prove it's wrong instead of just pushing an incoherent theory onto people.

I'm not pushing any theory on anyone; you are. It's up to you to prove that yours is correct; I pointed out that showing that it's coherent doesn't achieve that (still less does merely claiming it's coherent, which seems to be your strategy).

quote: The subject matter is a discussion on whether or not that is the case.

I'm taking it as axiomatic, and therefore consider any economo-ethical theory that contradicts it necessarily wrong.

	02-02-2005 06:14									#213
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist I'm not pushing any theory on anyone; you are. It's up to you to prove that yours is correct; I pointed out that showing that it's coherent doesn't achieve that (still less does merely claiming it's coherent, which seems to be your strategy).

I don't expect to prove anything. I achieve to be coherent and reasonable. Those to goals I believe I have achieved.

quote: I'm taking it as axiomatic, and therefore consider any economo-ethical theory that contradicts it necessarily wrong.

Any axiom should be tested against real world situations. One obvious situation where you would be wrong to make such an assumption is the case where a person does not believe that the wage is fair, but takes the job anyway for any number of reasons including the hopes of getting a better job in the future. Is it impossible for you to see such a situation?

	02-02-2005 06:26									#214
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I don't expect to prove anything. I achieve to be coherent and reasonable. Those to goals I believe I have achieved.

Reasonable is always debateable, but I would generally accept that. Where I think you're wrong is not a matter of lack of coherence, just different assumptions about the world.

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Any axiom should be tested against real world situations. One obvious situation where you would be wrong to make such an assumption is the case where a person does not believe that the wage is fair, but takes the job anyway for any number of reasons including the hopes of getting a better job in the future. Is it impossible for you to see such a situation?

It is strange you mention testing here, when you claim above to only want to be coherent and reasonable.

	02-02-2005 06:29									#215
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue Reasonable is always debateable, but I would generally accept that. Where I think you're wrong is not a matter of lack of coherence, just different assumptions about the world. It is strange you mention testing here, when you claim above to only want to be coherent and reasonable.

I expect my assumptions to be tested. That's reasonable.

	02-02-2005 06:34									#216
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Any axiom should be tested against real world situations. One obvious situation where you would be wrong to make such an assumption is the case where a person does not believe that the wage is fair, but takes the job anyway for any number of reasons including the hopes of getting a better job in the future. Is it impossible for you to see such a situation?

It's only all to easy. But that the situation sucks from the POV of the employee doesn't mean its unfair.

	02-02-2005 06:37									#217
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist It's only all to easy. But that the situation sucks from the POV of the employee doesn't mean its unfair.

Let's see how far you will take it. If a family needed money to pay rent would you purchase their family car for pennies on the dollar?

	02-02-2005 06:39									#218
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious The value of land is speculative value though. Land doesn't provide more utility than food.

This is like saying that all land has the same value or that more land has the same value as less land.

In other words, what you said is nonsense.

	02-02-2005 06:43									#219
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quote: Originally posted by Ned This is like saying that all land has the same value or that more land has the same value as less land. In other words, what you said is nonsense.

How so? Obviously land has different values. Different speculative values that is. We don't get real use value for land. It's really a parameter for creating utility.

	02-02-2005 06:54									#220
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What kind of cretin thinks that value is subjective? I don't think that subjectivity really exists anyway, but that's another story....

It's relative to persons, but that is not the same thing as being whatever I happen to value it at a particular time.

One way of understanding the value of an object is what I would be prepared to trade for it if I was fully informed as to my own needs and fully informed as to how the object would meet those needs. But these two conditions are almost never fulfilled.

Simply put, what I happen to want at any given time may not be in fact what I really want as I can be mistaken about my own needs and the capacities of objects to satisfy them.

	02-02-2005 06:58									#221
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That complicates things a bit

	02-02-2005 07:08									#222
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Of course it does. But many economically inclined people tend to dismiss such obvious features of reality out of hand.

Every human being pursues some conception of the good, but people tend to have a very vague and often contradictory idea of what that is. Even if the good is relative to different persons, that does not entail that what any person pursues at any given time is identical with the good.

People can be wrong about what is in fact good for them. In many cases other people are better at determining what is good for you than you are. People don't like this, but that doesn't stop it being true.

	02-02-2005 07:11									#223
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Let's see how far you will take it. If a family needed money to pay rent would you purchase their family car for pennies on the dollar?

I'm not familiar with that idiom, but assuming it means buying it far below the price it might normally be expected to fetch, sure. I'm better off, they're better off, both parties volunteered to the deal.

Edit: The scenario is rather odd, tho; why couldn't they fetch the market price for it?

	02-02-2005 07:14									#224
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon It's relative to persons, but that is not the same thing as being whatever I happen to value it at a particular time. One way of understanding the value of an object is what I would be prepared to trade for it if I was fully informed as to my own needs and fully informed as to how the object would meet those needs. But these two conditions are almost never fulfilled. Simply put, what I happen to want at any given time may not be in fact what I really want as I can be mistaken about my own needs and the capacities of objects to satisfy them.

I would agree. When I say subjectively, I mean different for each person, and different at different points in time. Simply that you can't put an objective, overall value on a good.

It's an interesting point though, as when using it in a model, what someone thinks they value is the important measure, as that's what they will buy, and is how to predict their behaviour. However a government may want to guide people to choosing things that are of a higher value to them, but which they don't necessarily think are. Moreover, how do you know what is of value, since no-one has perfect information? Without those two conditions being fulfilled, how can we improve choices to make cumulative value increase?

	02-02-2005 07:24									#225
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quote: I would agree. When I say subjectively, I mean different for each person, and different at different points in time. Simply that you can't put an objective, overall value on a good.

Although it is true that things may become more or less valuable to people given different circumstances, this isn't logically sufficient to entail what many people believe: namely that there is not one proper conception of the good for human beings.

My own view is that there are slight differences between people, but that the similarities are overwhelming, so personal relativism isn't really the big deal that people think it is. Moreover, the similarities between people are such that we really do know more about people's preferences than we think we do.

quote: It's an interesting point though, as when using it in a model, what someone thinks they value is the important measure, as that's what they will buy, and is how to predict their behaviour. However a government may want to guide people to choosing things that are of a higher value to them, but which they don't necessarily think are. Moreover, how do you know what is of value, since no-one has perfect information? Without those two conditions being fulfilled, how can we improve choices to make cumulative value increase?

My own view is rather less elevated. People spend vast sums of effort in order to obtain things that they don't really need. A few people are completely ignorant of this, but most would probably admit it if questioned, and are genuinely puzzled at why such a thing should happen. And yet everybody does it and continues to do so.

This seems to be a perverse feature of our economy, which is encouraged by it being a relative free-for-all.

Weird...

	02-02-2005 07:49									#226
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist I'm not familiar with that idiom, but assuming it means buying it far below the price it might normally be expected to fetch, sure. I'm better off, they're better off, both parties volunteered to the deal.

So you would say that anything that makes you better off is fair?

quote: Edit: The scenario is rather odd, tho; why couldn't they fetch the market price for it?

Assume the rent is due before they can find a buyer at market price.

	02-02-2005 07:54									#227
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Of course it does. But many economically inclined people tend to dismiss such obvious features of reality out of hand. Every human being pursues some conception of the good, but people tend to have a very vague and often contradictory idea of what that is. Even if the good is relative to different persons, that does not entail that what any person pursues at any given time is identical with the good. People can be wrong about what is in fact good for them. In many cases other people are better at determining what is good for you than you are. People don't like this, but that doesn't stop it being true.

But who knows what is a better value to an person than himself? I'll grant you that people make poor decisions for themselves sometimes, but I still prefer to assume that individuals are most capable of making decisions for themselves. There are obvious exceptions though.

	02-02-2005 09:44									#228
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist I'm not familiar with that idiom, but assuming it means buying it far below the price it might normally be expected to fetch, sure. I'm better off, they're better off, both parties volunteered to the deal.

This is something you would actually do? Sure there are plenty of people who would do something like that, but there are also plenty of people who would pay a 'fair' price for the car. Such an act is only fair according to you, and only in the sense that it may be in line with your own morality. However, it is not fair in the sense that it is equitable, which is a more objective way to describe fairness. Just because someone benefits from a deal doesn't mean that the deal is equitable-fair, both parties should benefit according to their costs.

	02-02-2005 19:02									#229
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious But who knows what is a better value to an person than himself? I'll grant you that people make poor decisions for themselves sometimes, but I still prefer to assume that individuals are most capable of making decisions for themselves. There are obvious exceptions though.

I'ld take issue with this as most buying decisions by most people are driven from the emotional not the rational being. That being said the ability to understand from a rational POV the value of a product or service is understandably suspect.

Its the first thing taught in sales 101.

	02-02-2005 19:08									#230
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Sure you can fool people, but otherwise they are pretty capable. You aren't saying that salesmen should decide what is valuable to us are you?

	02-02-2005 19:17									#231
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No sales people are charged with making an emotional bond with people and influencing their emotions to the point where they buy.

A buy decision has been shown time and again to move from a rational weighing of benefits and features to a time when emotion rules the decision making process. At this critical juncture rationality goes out the window and emotion rules. A good salesmen knows this and has set his ground work accordingly so that he can manipulate (if you choose to use that word) the emotions accordingly so that the buy decision is the preferable one amongst the alternatives. (non-buy, buy competitive products/services etc.)

Even in impersonal modes of selling such as internet etc. emotions are tapped into in order to influence the buy. It is the essence of advertising.

In short, to assign value at the point of time of purchase is the least accurate as that is the time when emotions rule.

	02-02-2005 19:21									#232
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I disagree with you Og. I don't find emotions significant. They may play some part.

	02-02-2005 19:29									#233
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I disagree with you Og. I don't find emotions significant. They may play some part.

I suggest then that you re-evaluate your buying habits and buying motives.

I consider myself a normally rationale person (an engineer for crying out loud) , yet when I really do an in depth look at buying decisions I made, I deluded myself for years thinking I used almost exclusively my rational self to make the decisions. Upon re-evaluation I came to understand ( I would say) approximately 90% of all my buying decisions ultimately came down to an emotional decision to do the buy (in the finality of the deal) or otherwise fulfill an emotional need. Realize that is not to say that a person doesn't do their homework or has not considered thoughtfully the decision to buy or not buy, it merely is that at the time of purchase most people have to have emotional buy in to get over the angst of doing the deal.

	02-02-2005 19:33									#234
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My own buying decision have nothing to do with my emotions. I can honestly say that. My wife seems to be more spend thrift though, but I think that's because she doesn't really have to worry about making ends meet.

	02-02-2005 19:55									#235
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious So you would say that anything that makes you better off is fair?

No. I would, for instance, not consider it fair if I killed random people in the streets and stole their valuables, despite the fact it would leave me better off.

quote: Assume the rent is due before they can find a buyer at market price.

That suggests some majorly poor planning on their part. Ah well, it doesn't really matter.

	02-02-2005 22:12									#236
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist That suggests some majorly poor planning on their part. Ah well, it doesn't really matter.

No it doesn't. That's just another bad assumption on your part.

Anyway, I wouldn't really call your belief morality. It's really just self-interest. Such a belief is dependent on your ability to be the exploiter as opposed to the exploited.

It might interest you to know that most polytubbies are opposed to price gouging, which of coures involves free decisions. LoA of all people, started a thread on it, and immediately many people of like mind to your own spoke out against it.

	02-02-2005 22:17									#237
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Some of you might find it interesting to know that price gouging is a violation of the Uniform Code of Military Justice in the US. I know this from first hand experience.

I was assigned temporary duty to the supply department on one of my cruises. So I had knowledge of the cigarette supply. I knew that the ship would run out before we pulled into port so I stocked up. I was selling packs for $20 and single cigarettes for $5 a piece. People were getting pissed, but they were still paying. My superior officer told me to stop it if I didn't want to get wrote up.

btw, I wasn't a communist, and I still can't say for sure if what I was doing was immoral, since people shouldn't smoke anyway, but I certainly don't believe that any deal that people make freely is fair.

	02-02-2005 22:22									#238
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious My own buying decision have nothing to do with my emotions. I can honestly say that. My wife seems to be more spend thrift though, but I think that's because she doesn't really have to worry about making ends meet.

I would submit that the tighter you are with your money they more likely you need to feel a compelling reason (read emotional need) to do a buy. Your angst level of actually purchasing is actually higher because of the constraints of your budget. When you do buy, you need to feel emotionally it was worth it.

Realize I am not talking about impulse buys (although that is also a component), I am talking about the decision making rationalization process people go through at the point of purchase. Even for the many routine purchases this rationalization has been made years ago and the continued ongoing buy decision is now a routine one with little emotional component but was once upon a time emotionally rationalized.

	02-02-2005 22:28									#239
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe I would submit that the tighter you are with your money they more likely you need to feel a compelling reason (read emotional need) to do a buy. Your angst level of actually purchasing is actually higher because of the constraints of your budget. When you do buy, you need to feel emotionally it was worth it.

I don't think that being conservative is necessarily being rational. Some people are too conservative, and they could actually be happier maybe if they let loose a little. That's not me however. I put a lot of rational thought into my purchases unless they are immaterial.

quote: Realize I am not talking about impulse buys (although that is also a component), I am talking about the decision making rationalization process people go through at the point of purchase. Even for the many routine purchases this rationalization has been made years ago and the continued ongoing buy decision is now a routine one with little emotional component but was once upon a time emotionally rationalized.

Emotions definitely play a part, but that doesn't mean that decisions are irrational. Emotion does not make something irrational.

	02-02-2005 22:43									#240
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious No it doesn't. That's just another bad assumption on your part.

The car market is liquid enough that finding a buyer willing to pay the market price does not normally take alot of time. To have to sell the car to me for a much lower price the seller would have to be in major hurry. Being in a major hurry to get money to a predictible cost like rent certainly implies bad planning.

quote: Anyway, I wouldn't really call your belief morality. It's really just self-interest. Such a belief is dependent on your ability to be the exploiter as opposed to the exploited.

If it were just self-interest, why should I care if the other party consents to the deal?

quote: It might interest you to know that most polytubbies are opposed to price gouging, which of coures involves free decisions. LoA of all people, started a thread on it, and immediately many people of like mind to your own spoke out against it.

People of like mind to mine? Who'd that be?

Let's say you're right about the majority of polytubbies. If so, so what? If said majority thought that boiling bearded people alive should be legalized, would that therefore be right?