02-02-2005 14:56									#61
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Bringing polygamy into the gay marriage debate isn't valid. Gay marriage is between two individuals, thus invalidating the polygamy issue as relevant to this debate. And I'm going to bed. Good night.

	02-02-2005 14:57									#62
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quote: Would it make a difference?

Sure it would. Two being one flesh and all.

	02-02-2005 14:59									#63
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quote: Oh give me a break... so gay people are somehow responsible for the continued disintegration of marriage?

No more so than the folks who elevate common law relationships on par with marriage, and the folks who treat marriage as a business contract.

quote: You are acting so ridiculous. If anything allowing gay couples to get married would help marriage. You are the one suffering from severe denial.

How would it help marriage Fez?

	02-02-2005 14:59									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Sure it would. Two being one flesh and all.

References to your religion have no bearing on my marriage.

	02-02-2005 15:01									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi It's a valid concern for two reasons. First is the impending recognition in Europe of the polygamy rights for Muslims, and the subsequent demand from Muslims here for similar recognition. They have a pretty good argument from the Charter, with respect to their section 2 rights, to freedom to practice their religion. Of course, they could counter your argument by saying that so long as the women freely choose to enter their religion, and to marry them, that this will prevent the concerns over the equality of women. The second is what I was referring to, the folks out in Bountiful, BC. They openly engage in polygamy, and have yet to face any consequences from the provincial government.

Two words. Say what?!

Recognition in Europe of Polygamy? Where?

Freedom to practice religion? I'm sure there is something, somewhere, that recognises slavery in some religion. Don't mean Jack ****.

Unless the forces of Bountiful can throw a cloak over the eyes of the SCoC and have them ignore the impact on women, there is no way in Hell any court in this country is gonna rule that Polygamy is protected by the Charter, despite the RCMP being wussies and thinking they might.

	02-02-2005 15:02									#66
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quote: Bringing polygamy into the gay marriage debate isn't valid. Gay marriage is between two individuals, thus invalidating the polygamy issue as relevant to this debate.

I have recieved conflicting points here in this thread to my earlier question. Some say it ought to be permitted, and others say that it should not.

But both agree that these issues are connected, even though they disagree on most everything else.

Why should marriage be between two individuals Fez? You cannot be an individual, and one with your partner at the same time.

	02-02-2005 15:03									#67
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Bullshit I agree they are connected! They have zero, ZERO, to do with each other.

	02-02-2005 15:06									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi I have recieved conflicting points here in this thread to my earlier question. Some say it ought to be permitted, and others say that it should not. But both agree that these issues are connected, even though they disagree on most everything else. Why should marriage be between two individuals Fez? You cannot be an individual, and one with your partner at the same time.

Do you agree that homosexuals should enjoy the benefits of civil unions? That means rights to property, default powers of attourney, shared pensions etc.

Do you?

	02-02-2005 15:06									#69
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quote: Polygamist Muslims are already enjoying special dispensations in Ireland and the U.K. that are not (yet) available here.

From Kay's article in the National post.

quote: there is no way in Hell any court in this country is gonna rule that Polygamy is protected by the Charter, despite the RCMP being wussies and thinking they might.

They don't have to.

All they have to do is to say the same things they are doing now, that many people have structured their lives around this arrangement, and let things go from there.

A law unenforced might as well, not be a law at all.

	02-02-2005 15:08									#70
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quote: Do you agree that homosexuals should enjoy the benefits of civil unions? That means rights to property, default powers of attourney, shared pensions etc. Do you?

Do I? Considering that up until 1999 they didn't, no I don't.

	02-02-2005 15:10									#71
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Are you aware that the majority of those opposed to marriage favour civil unions?

	02-02-2005 15:14									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi They don't have to. All they have to do is to say the same things they are doing now, that many people have structured their lives around this arrangement, and let things go from there. A law unenforced might as well, not be a law at all.

I agree that Bountiful should be burned, then every single nail should be pulled out of every single board, and no two stones left connected. That town should be razed as thoroughly as any town has every been razed.

However, the gutlessness of the Province of BC and the RCMP over Bountiful is not the deciding point of national policy and law, and nor should it be.

	02-02-2005 15:34									#73
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whats wrong with polygamy anyway?

	02-02-2005 15:37									#74
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Aside from the usual exploitation of women in overly patriarchal societies? Not much.

	02-02-2005 15:51									#75
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...and the fact that I can barely deal with one woman nagging me at a time?

	02-02-2005 16:03									#76
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There you go again, KH. Always the practical one.

What you need to learn to cope with the coming age of Polygamy is to BEAT THEM SEVERELY, that way they won't nag you. You'll nag them.

	02-02-2005 16:15									#77
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I think it should all be legal. Marriage between any group, two or more people of any sex/sexes. Who gives a **** who marries who or what kind of life they want to have together.

Make sure they all have the legal protection against abuse that anyone else has.

	02-02-2005 16:35									#78
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I care if 16 year old girls, raised in closed communities, are coerced into marriages with polygamist ****ers who chase off young men so there is no challenge to their position.

	02-02-2005 16:37									#79
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You're going to say, 'but that is abuse.' You're right, and I ask you to site a case where polygamy is not abuse.

	02-02-2005 16:38									#80
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Recognition in Europe of Polygamy? Where?

Indeed. Not only is polygamy illegal everywhere in Europe, it's actually being actively acted against. Which is more than can be said for certain areas of the US and Canada...

quote: Freedom to practice religion? I'm sure there is something, somewhere, that recognises slavery in some religion.

Not just in some religion, in all 3 major monotheist religions: Judaism, Christianity and Islam. In fact, the Bible was used to justify the exploitation of slaves in the New World in colonial times.

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Why should marriage be between two individuals Fez? You cannot be an individual, and one with your partner at the same time.

The institute of marriage as it exists today in many countries including Canada discriminates against people of homosexual orientation. Gay marriage advocates merely seek to end this discrimination.

However, there's no such thing as a 'polygamic' orientation. Polygamy is purely a social construct, usually aimed at the exploitation of women.

Hence, gay marriage and polygamy have NOTHING in common and are completely independent issues.

That being said, I agree with MikeH, there's no reason why both gay marriage and polygamy should not be legal. Who is the government to tell people who can marry who and how people should live? Instead of fighting polygamy, I'd rather have the government fight the exploitation of women in general. There are still way too many monogamic marriages where women are being exploited as well...

	02-02-2005 16:41									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist The rest will be forced to participitate in gay orgies and wear purple clothes.

Oh my gawd. Purple is so Seventies and hetero.


What were you thinking?

	02-02-2005 16:42									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi What about organisations like say, the Knights of Columbus? Would they also be protected?

From what?

Developing common sense or entering the 20th Century?

	02-02-2005 16:50									#83
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I think he is saying they are an organisation with religious sensibilities, but who will not enjoy the protection of being a church under the proposed law.

No church will be forced to perform a gay marriage, but a Jewish community centre will be forced to host the party or be guilty of discrimination.

I agree it is a weak point in what is proposed.

	02-02-2005 16:50									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus Indeed. Not only is polygamy illegal everywhere in Europe, it's actually being actively acted against. Which is more than can be said for certain areas of the US and Canada...

Positive about that? IIRC, Sweden recognizes polygamous marriages if they were entered in a country where polygamy is legal prior to immigration.

	02-02-2005 17:04									#85
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither I think he is saying they are an organisation with religious sensibilities, but who will not enjoy the protection of being a church under the proposed law. No church will be forced to perform a gay marriage, but a Jewish community centre will be forced to host the party or be guilty of discrimination. I agree it is a weak point in what is proposed.

He's grasping at straws. But then again, a drowning man will clutch at a snake, and certainly his argument looks like it's going down for the last time.


Ooo-errr.... no double entendre intended.

	02-02-2005 17:08									#86
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither You're going to say, 'but that is abuse.' You're right, and I ask you to site a case where polygamy is not abuse.

Just because something can be misused doesn't mean it should be banned.

Legalise them and regulate it like drugs, or cars.

	02-02-2005 17:21									#87
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Our marriage laws are based on Judeo-Christian beliefs i.e. 'one man and one woman'. IMO, once you reject the law to allow gay marriage you reject it outright and as a consequence must allow other types of marriage. Polygamy is not the problem, lack of enforcement of already existing laws that protect minors is the problem.

As an aside, it's strange to me that in a country like Canada, where govt interference and regulation is so pervasive so as to have become accepted by intelligent people as 'normal', that the conditions that NYE alludes to still exist. So much for the socialist utopia eh?

	02-02-2005 17:23									#88
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Our marriage laws are based on Judeo-Christian beliefs i.e. 'one man and one woman'. IMO, once you reject the law to allow gay marriage you reject it outright and as a consequence must allow other types of marriage. Polygamy is not the problem, lack of enforcement of already existing laws that protect minors is the problem. As an aside, it's strange to me that in a country like Canada, where govt interference and regulation is so pervasive so as to have become accepted by intelligent people as 'normal', that the conditions that NYE alludes to still exist. So much for the socialist utopia eh?

The law in North America (outside of Louisiana) is based on Anglo-Saxon common law.


Which is non-Christian in origin.

	02-02-2005 17:40									#89
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US common law does derive from English common law and presumably from Anglo-Saxon law. Given the basis for the foundation of this country i.e. christian zealots seeking religious freedom I would argue that the basis of the marriage (in particular) and morality laws in the USA is christianity (even if you could provide evidence written in anglo-saxon that stated marriage was between one man and one woman). Although I'd be interested in such evidence I doubt that you can do so.

	02-02-2005 18:04									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi What about organisations like say, the Knights of Columbus? Would they also be protected?

You're right. Knights of Columbus members should be able to marry each other if they want. They might have to form a new group though, maybe Knights of Fire Island.

Actually, I'm against all forms of marriage.