02-02-2005 18:41									#91
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Either ban it all or allow it all is my view.

	02-02-2005 23:31									#92
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi No more so than the folks who elevate common law relationships on par with marriage, and the folks who treat marriage as a business contract. How would it help marriage Fez?

It would help marriage by allowing a loving couple to get married. Gay couples are just as capable of getting married as any heterosexual couples.

	02-02-2005 23:32									#93
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi I have recieved conflicting points here in this thread to my earlier question. Some say it ought to be permitted, and others say that it should not. But both agree that these issues are connected, even though they disagree on most everything else. Why should marriage be between two individuals Fez? You cannot be an individual, and one with your partner at the same time.

These issues ARE NOT CONNECTED. I cannot believe you can even begin to say that. And don't nit pick on a particular word choice.

	02-02-2005 23:35									#94
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo These issues ARE NOT CONNECTED. I cannot believe you can even begin to say that. And don't nit pick on a particular word choice.

When you start redifining words that have particular meaning in law you open the barn door. It is a valid point.

	02-02-2005 23:40									#95
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

SpencerH, The US was founded on the principles of the Enlightenment, and many of the founders were Deists.

	02-02-2005 23:43									#96
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Our marriage laws are based on Judeo-Christian beliefs i.e. 'one man and one woman'. IMO, once you reject the law to allow gay marriage you reject it outright and as a consequence must allow other types of marriage.

False dichotomy if I ever heard one.

	02-02-2005 23:49									#97
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by joncha References to your religion have no bearing on my marriage.

Indeed not. BK seems to be confused in that marriage in Canada is a religious rite, when it is (in the context of the debate) a civil one.

But at least we now have his cards on the table: People who don't plan on/are able to have kids shouldn't be allowed to marry. Thank god religious nuts like this don't run Canada.

	02-02-2005 23:57									#98
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse whats wrong with polygamy anyway?

The matter of choice for the girl is removed and for most of these arrangements most of the family or shall i say each wife ends upapplying for welfare living off the states fund for support.

	02-02-2005 23:57									#99
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi First is the impending recognition in Europe of the polygamy rights for Muslims, and the subsequent demand from Muslims here for similar recognition.

	03-02-2005 00:13									#100
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo It would help marriage by allowing a loving couple to get married. Gay couples are just as capable of getting married as any heterosexual couples.

That's not a defense of anything. If you're going to make a case for something, try making an actual argument. The question on the table is how it would help marriage. If you really think there is value in gay marriage, you should be able to answer that with something of substance.

	03-02-2005 00:15									#101
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

My beef with polygamy is that women would all go with the rich hunks, leaving us nerds out in the cold...

	03-02-2005 00:17									#102
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I my self wouldnt be asking how it could help marriage, but rather how could it hurt the institution of marriage.

	03-02-2005 00:18									#103
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Odin My beef with polygamy is that women would all go with the rich hunks, leaving us nerds out in the cold...

Not if your a rich nerd.

	03-02-2005 00:21									#104
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Mrs. Tuberski I my self wouldnt be asking how it could help marriage, but rather how could it hurt the institution of marriage.

An equally valid question.

For the record, I'm completely in favor of gay marriage. I think there are many compelling reasons to allow it. I also think that if you're going to advocate something, you should be able to back yourself up instead of just giving the other side and easy target to tear down. That only strengthens the opposition.

	03-02-2005 00:54									#105
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov False dichotomy if I ever heard one.

The incomplete response scores 0/5. Feel free to expand (on just what the hell you mean by that ).

	03-02-2005 01:04									#106
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Odin SpencerH, The US was founded on the principles of the Enlightenment, and many of the founders were Deists.

I was really refering to the pilgrims than founders, but in any case, is your position that because Jefferson and Franklin et al are considered to be deists today that the laws they proposed and enacted weren't founded upon christian beliefs? I'd love to see evidence that shows a US laws connection to hindu, moslem, or some other belief system than christian. Or perhaps you'd argue that our marriage and morality laws are secular in nature?

	03-02-2005 01:25									#107
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

The marriage laws are moderately Christian in origin, but the overall legal system is of Pagan Anglo-Saxon descent. Clearing away pollution and making bits consistent with the spirit of the thing is a good idea.

	03-02-2005 01:50									#108
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Maybe you can explain that there is no harm to the girls that are married off at 15 and 16 to lechers in closed communities where the nubiles are raised for the explicit purpose. Do you have a clue about the shoes other people walk in, or does it have to be represented in a computer game before you can visualise it?

I wouldn't count the first case as consensual. The girls are pressured by their closed communities to enter into such relations. But what is wrong with it is 3 or more consenting fully informed adults decide on doing it? If orgies are ok, then why not a legal arrangement between 3 or more people?

	03-02-2005 01:52									#109
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi You will probably get your wish, the way things are going right now.

If only thing went my way more often.

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Thank you. So the slippery slope argument is very valid, despite Asher's protestations to the contrary.

Indeed. The problem with both sides of the debate is that they see where the slippery slope leads as something bad. The slope is valid, which means we should allow polygamy.

	03-02-2005 01:55									#110
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo I find it funny BK still persistently tries to find a connection between polygamy and gay marriage. None exists, but it is so sad to see him go down that road of shame.

If any two consenting adults should be able to enter into a legal status, then why not more than two? I still don't see why the many supporters of gay marriage are opposed to polygamy, there is nothing inherently wrong with it.

	03-02-2005 02:00									#111
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Voltaire If any two consenting adults should be able to enter into a legal status, then why not more than two? I still don't see why the many supporters of gay marriage are opposed to polygamy, there is nothing inherently wrong with it.

It does at least have an historical/cultural connection to the word "marriage" unlike the proposed new definition.

	03-02-2005 02:01									#112
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Voltaire If any two consenting adults should be able to enter into a legal status, then why not more than two? I still don't see why the many supporters of gay marriage are opposed to polygamy, there is nothing inherently wrong with it.

In minds eye the basis of polygamy is based on the fact that men are the ones allowed to have mulitple wives were as the woman has only one. Not that this would make a difference. The idea of the children that are born out of these relationships are related and can end up marrying each other. Then you have cases of inbreeding and deformities in these children that come from these relationships.

	03-02-2005 02:08									#113
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Mrs. Tuberski In minds eye the basis of polygamy is based on the fact that men are the ones allowed to have mulitple wives were as the woman has only one. Not that this would make a difference. The idea of the children that are born out of these relationships are related and can end up marrying each other. Then you have cases of inbreeding and deformities in these children that come from these relationships.

I took polygamy in the sense of allowing multiple spouses, for both men and women. And I'm not quite sure what you mean when you say that children born out of these relationships are not considered siblings and hence can marry each other? How does this come about?

	03-02-2005 02:12									#114
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Mrs. Tuberski The idea of the children that are born out of these relationships are related and can end up marrying each other. Then you have cases of inbreeding and deformities in these children that come from these relationships.

I gotta say I'm a little confused by this. If we assume the rule of thumb now is you can't interbreed with members of your own family, then why would it be different if your family had a situation with multiple wives (or husbands)? It seems to me it's identical to a guy breeding with his step-sister.

	03-02-2005 02:14									#115
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Voltaire I took polygamy in the sense of allowing multiple spouses, for both men and women. And I'm not quite sure what you mean when you say that children born out of these relationships are not considered siblings and hence can marry each other? How does this come about?

In all recorded instances of polygamy recorded, it is the man that is allowed more then one wife. The laws do not include women. In closed communties the girls are born from the same father and married to one of the other wives sons, when they are old enough. This is where inbreeding occurs.

	03-02-2005 02:16									#116
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Kontiki I gotta say I'm a little confused by this. If we assume the rule of thumb now is you can't interbreed with members of your own family, then why would it be different if your family had a situation with multiple wives (or husbands)? It seems to me it's identical to a guy breeding with his step-sister.

In the cases were the people are step related there is no blood or genetic relationship.

	03-02-2005 02:18									#117
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Mrs. Tuberski In all recorded instances of polygamy recorded, it is the man that is allowed more then one wife. The laws do not include women. In closed communties the girls are born from the same father and married to one of the other wives sons, when they are old enough. This is where inbreeding occurs.

Our proposed legislation deals with "persons" not gender specifics. One can not assume that polygamy in any future legal sense would be restricted to single husband and multiple wives. On the contrary it would have to apply equally to both genders.

	03-02-2005 02:21									#118
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Mrs. Tuberski In all recorded instances of polygamy recorded, it is the man that is allowed more then one wife. The laws do not include women. In closed communties the girls are born from the same father and married to one of the other wives sons, when they are old enough. This is where inbreeding occurs.

Not quite. There's plenty of documented polyandrical (multiple husbands) situations. It's reasonably common in Tibet, Nepal and Sri Lanka, among a few other places.

As for the idea of closed communes with rules as to who you can and cannot marry, you're right that that would (should) be a problem. But the practice of polygamy in and of itself needn't allow that.

	03-02-2005 02:25									#119
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Here around, half-siblings are strictly off-limits as marriage partners*. Isn't that the case over in North America too.

* It occurs to me I do not know whether this also applies to civil unions.

	03-02-2005 02:26									#120
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Mrs. Tuberski In the cases were the people are step related there is no blood or genetic relationship.

Sorry, I was thinking about the subset of step siblings where they share one parent but not both.