08-02-2005 12:43									#391
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Kid

quote: I don't blame you. Otherwise you will find yourself going off on a million tangents. Each time you respond to him the tangents will only increase. That's his strategy.

Instead of answering my question you changed the subject again and again. Recap? Here is what you said:

quote: I can say I'm opposed to jerking off all I want, but if I do it then I'm responsible.

And my response:

How does that make the person opposed to it responsible?

Instead of answering you said this:

quote: How does being opposed to something make them not responsible? If I offer you $1 to give me a ride to go murder people, and you take it aren't you partially responsible even if you oppose murder.

Notice a change? I did... You went from your masturbatory practices to a ride and murdering people. I repeated my question pointing out how you changed your argument and you responded with this gem:

quote: No you are changing my argument. Americans today are no different from Americans in the past who have hunted down Native American children like they were animals, enslaved African Americans, commited complete innocent Japanese to internment camps, dropped nukes on people, used violence against the working class for struggling for a living wage, deported and used violence against other peoples who they thought would contaminate their society, used our military to buly and force other nations to accept govts that were favorable, and more. Americans are not different today than they have been in the past. Don't tell me they are innocent. You know what they do. Yet you live your life like they don't do those things, and even defend them.

Notice another change? I did too... From masturbation to a $1 ride to murder people and now a litany of past crimes all the while accusing me of changing your argument. You dont need help with that...

NYE

quote: We will have to wait for Berz to come back and say how you have it wrong.

I'm waiting for you to accuse Aggie and Kid of supporting terrorism like you did me a while back.

	08-02-2005 13:04									#392
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker If you find cut and paste so offensive why do you cut and paste yourself? God I get tired of this double standard.

I think he's asking you to write a coherent essay of your own, not to simply cut and slash line by line what he said.

Honestly? I agree with him. These quote vs quote debates are boring. I can't tell what you stand for as much as I can tell what you are arguing against.

	08-02-2005 13:05									#393
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker NYE I'm waiting for you to accuse Aggie and Kid of supporting terrorism like you did me a while back.

I have and he does. Maybe you missed it.

	08-02-2005 14:25									#394
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NYE

quote: I think he's asking you to write a coherent essay of your own, not to simply cut and slash line by line what he said. Honestly? I agree with him. These quote vs quote debates are boring. I can't tell what you stand for as much as I can tell what you are arguing against.

I'm responding to a lengthy post in which he cut and paste. Why criticise me when he does the same thing? And I'm not posting in response to what you said, I'm responding to him. So just don't read our posts, real simple.

quote: I have and he does. Maybe you missed it.

Where?

	08-02-2005 14:32									#395
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Just went back two pages and you're right. Have at 'em.

It's still a boring way to argue in a thread. TBH, I don't bother reading those hack and slash posts.

	08-02-2005 14:49									#396
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Does that mean you didn't accuse Aggie and Kid of supporting terrorists? TBH I don't care what bores you, I sure didn't have your sensibilities in mind when I responded to Aggies cut and paste post. I don't gripe at people for the way they debate but I do get tired of the hypocrisy of people using cut and paste only to whine when I do the same.

	08-02-2005 15:07									#397
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Molly Why does Republican behavior mean the Sandinistas didn't slaughter Indians? That's why your comment about the GOP war on the Sandinstas is irrelevant. If all I'm doing is giving you information you already had, why did you ask for sources for the Sandinstas crimes? And that last bit is BS, the Miskito Indians never felt any "solidarity" with the Sandinistas. Nicaragua is essentially 2 countries with the Indians on one side and the "Spaniards" on the other. The conflict began when Sandinistas won their revolution and acted as if this was a green light to walk into Indian lands and run their lives.

Republican lies doesn't imply anything about the behaviour, good or bad, about the Sandinistas. You must have some other argument in mind, that I wasn't presenting.

I hardly feel I've been obtuse: if anything perhaps too subtle. Sorry 'bout that.

The linkage is in the 'magical thinking' between Al Qaeda terrorists trying to get back to some Islamic Year Zero by bombing and killing civilians and non-Americans and the 'magical thinking' of the Republicans, apparently deluded into believing that people will happily welcome back mass murderers and torturers the more you kill and torture and maim and rape them, and that retrofitting a reason onto a secretly funded campaign of terrorism goes unnoticed by anyone outside the Looking Glass World of American Right Wing politics.

Now the reason I asked you for your source, should, as per the wording of your original statement about the Nicaraguan conflict, be obvious. You weren't assured of your facts.

You still aren't, if you imagine that the cultural-political divide in Nicaragua is between Spanish/Mestizo and indigenous Indian. It isn't, of course, because Nicaragua has a Caribbean coastal zone where the culture is black and Protestant and Anglophone, and dates from British Empire days.

And as I clearly pointed out, I supported the Nicaraguan Solidarity Campaign, which was not devoted wholly to propping up the Sandinista regime. Brush up on comprehension as well as reading. Try starting with the word 'Bluefields' .

And remember, as Pope said:

'a little learning is a dangerous thing'.

	08-02-2005 16:25									#398
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Following the 1979 Sandanista revolution in Nicaragua, the Honduran Miskitos' isolation dissipated. After Sandanistas destroyed many Miskito villages on the Nicaraguan side of the Rio Coco, over 10,000 Nicaraguan Miskito Indians fled to Honduras. These refugees were placed in UNHCR camps along the border of both countries. By February 1983, the Nicaraguan Miskito refugees had settled (through UNHCR aid) in three Honduran towns: the Rio Mocoron, the Rio Warunta, and the Rio Patuca. In 1985 the UNHCR reported 18,000 refugees in Honduras; by 1986 the number had increased by 10,500.

From: http://www.cidcm.umd.edu/inscr/mar/data/indhon.htm

and from the left:

http://www.columbia.edu/~lnp3/mydoc...an/miskitos.htm

	08-02-2005 16:30									#399
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quote: Republican lies doesn't imply anything about the behaviour, good or bad, about the Sandinistas. You must have some other argument in mind, that I wasn't presenting.

That was my point, you highlighted the irony (the hypocrisy) of the GOP

quote: In any case, for Repugs to justify arming and aiding Contra terrorists to combat social injustice is rather ironic, don't you think

I'm not a Republican so why does their behavior relate to the Sandinistas? I agree with you, but its irrelevant nonetheless.

quote: Now the reason I asked you for your source, should, as per the wording of your original statement about the Nicaraguan conflict, be obvious. You weren't assured of your facts.

I wasn't sure, just reporting what I've heard over the years from Republicans (a dubious source, but fairly accurate this time).

quote: You still aren't, if you imagine that the cultural-political divide in Nicaragua is between Spanish/Mestizo and indigenous Indian. It isn't, of course, because Nicaragua has a Caribbean coastal zone where the culture is black and Protestant and Anglophone, and dates from British Empire days.

The links I provided show the Indians did not feel solidarity with the Spaniards and there was a cultural divide. Telling me there was none flies in the face of what I read.

quote: And as I clearly pointed out, I supported the Nicaraguan Solidarity Campaign, which was not devoted wholly to propping up the Sandinista regime. Brush up on comprehension as well as reading. Try starting with the word 'Bluefields' .

That campaign sure didn't include the Indians regardless of who these particular"Nicaraguans" claimed to be. Are you suggesting the Sandinistas didn't attack the Indians? What exactly is your point anyway?
I'd say what the Sandinistas did was despicable and you seem to want to defend them but how do you defend their behavior?

	08-02-2005 16:37									#400
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Are you suggesting the Sandinistas didn't attack the Indians? What exactly is your point anyway? I'd say what the Sandinistas did was despicable and you seem to want to defend them but how do you defend their behavior?

I haven't defended the Sandinista treatment of either the Miskito population, nor that of the coastal areas of the Caribbean.


As to what my point is, well, I've written simply and lucidly with the minimum of big words and relative clauses.

Can't see as I can do much more, really....

	08-02-2005 16:55									#401
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I didn't ask about your writing style, I asked for the point you're making.

	08-02-2005 18:24									#402
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Berzerker,

Insert jerk off for murder, and there shouldn't be a problem.

	08-02-2005 18:53									#403
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom As to what my point is, well, I've written simply and lucidly with the minimum of big words and relative clauses. Can't see as I can do much more, really....

Is a relative clause related to Santa? I know, I should know this because I am TESL qualified but anyway...

	08-02-2005 19:40									#404
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quote: If you find cut and paste so offensive why do you cut and paste yourself? God I get tired of this double standard.

Because it quickly gets ridiculous, and in your case, not mine, it is an attempt to introduce red herrings and irrelevancies that slow down and confuse the argument.

Your latest contribution fails again to deal with my actual argument, and I'm not getting into another pointless cut and paste marathon. Anyone who reads my last post can see what I'm getting at and see how you have it wrong.

	08-02-2005 21:56									#405
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I can't.

	08-02-2005 22:35									#406
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quote: Originally posted by rah I can't.

	08-02-2005 23:19									#407
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Yep, what I see is that he doesn't like berz's method is that it doesn't allow him to be inconsistent or modifying his arguement when it gets shot down.

	09-02-2005 03:34									#408
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quote: Yep, what I see is that he doesn't like berz's method is that it doesn't allow him to be inconsistent or modifying his arguement when it gets shot down.

Why don't you take it up then, Mr Smarty-pants?

What I don't like about it is that it's a waste of time. It's very easy to slash any article into small pieces and then post irrelevant objections whilst ignoring the remarks in context.

If you think my argument has been "shot down" then you need to go back to school.

	09-02-2005 03:37									#409
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quote: Originally posted by rah Yep, what I see is that he doesn't like berz's method is that it doesn't allow him to be inconsistent or modifying his arguement when it gets shot down.

I guess it should have nothing to do with the arguments at all.

	09-02-2005 03:40									#410
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Nope, too old to fight battles like this against people that refuse to self reflect.

While I am not the smartest person in the world. Many years ago I did graduate with honors with a poly sci degree, so I'm not totally ignorant And it's my personal opinion that he got the best of you. But then we all know about opinions.

	09-02-2005 03:42									#411
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rah,

It seems that you have never 'debated' with Berzerker.

	09-02-2005 03:44									#412
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quote: Nope, too old to fight battles like this against people that refuse to self reflect. While I am not the smartest person in the world. Many years ago I did graduate with honors with a poly sci degree, so I'm not totally ignorant And it's my personal opinion that he got the best of you. But then we all know about opinion

How so? Please elaborate. Your personal opinion is worthless unless backed up with reasons.

Berz talked a load of crap about something he doesn't even appear to understand (contractarianism). What's worse is that it involves a political theory he claims to endorse.

	09-02-2005 03:55									#413
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In short he's refused to even contemplate the problem, which is what justification do Libertarians give for legal authority.

"Natural rights" is not an answer to that question, since we can have natural rights in a state of nature and it won't make an iota of difference to whether or not there is a legal authority empowered to punish people for violating them.

It's not about a contractarian understanding of natural rights, but a contractarian understanding of who holds the legal authority to punish people for violations of them.

This is the admitted function of the Libertarian minimalist state. That's what Libertarians are claiming when they say that the state only exists to punish people for violating the rights of others and to enforce contracts.

Saying "we have natural rights" does not answer the question of why such an authority is legitimate for Libertarians - it merely provides the content of the laws that the authority will enforce.

It's not a question of what laws there are, but who enforces them.

If you want to say that anyone can enforce the law, there will be the crushingly obvious problem that bad indivduals will not only take the law into their own hands, but interpret it as it suits them.

	09-02-2005 05:59									#414
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Kid

quote: Berzerker, Insert jerk off for murder, and there shouldn't be a problem.

Okay, so why is the person who opposes murder responsible for the person who says they oppose murder and then murders people?

Thx Rah

Cya Aggie, you can now win the debate by speaking for both of us

	09-02-2005 06:12									#415
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Yeah right. Some Libertarian you turned out to be.

Rah doesn't know jack about it anyway, and he ran away. Rather like you.

	09-02-2005 06:45									#416
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...

	09-02-2005 07:41									#417
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I'm running away? You were the one who decided to stop responding. I sure as hell wont waste my time addressing your arguments when all you can do is throw hypocritical insults back at me.

	09-02-2005 07:47									#418
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You don't address arguments. You cut and paste into fragments without any sense of the overall argument, often coming up with bizarre one liners that have no relevance to the passage you are quoting.

You still haven't answered the question: what justification do Libertarians give for legal authority?

"Natural rights" is not, and cannot be the answer, for the reasons stated above.

	09-02-2005 07:48									#419
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Come on Berzerker. What is the problem with providing an argument with context?

	09-02-2005 07:56									#420
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I can recognize that people have natural rights, but nothing in that recognition requires me to recognize any particular group of persons as having the authority to drag me in front of a court to answer charges.

What endows the courts with their legitimacy in a Libertarian minimalist state?