05-02-2005 20:49									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo quote: I was gonna comment on the stupidity of the thread title (and all it implied), but why bother. Was going to comment on the stupidity of your post, but, ... yeah, I think I'll do it. Gonzales has said that the President is not limited by the Constitution, the Federal Anti-Torture Statute, the Anti-Torture Conventions, and the Geneva Conventions. Voting to confirm him is tantamount to condoning torture.

That is not right. I think G. said that al Qaeda does not have these protections. That is a whole different kettle of fish, is it not. For if the pres was not restricted as you say G. said, everyone, including you and me, would be subject to "torture."

Also, even though al Qaeda was not subject to the protections of any of these documents does not ipso facto mean that he advocated "torture" or that the Senators who supported him also voted for torture. That is nonsense.

	05-02-2005 23:01									#62
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Ned,

The US govt is no longer standing up against torture as a whole. In fact, they are torturing people. Why are you trying to make this seem like it's something that it's not?

	06-02-2005 00:04									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Ned, The US govt is no longer standing up against torture as a whole. In fact, they are torturing people. Why are you trying to make this seem like it's something that it's not?

Define torture.

	06-02-2005 00:11									#64
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Ned, we've been over this in another thread (thank you Ted for posting the most germane point). Gonzales was not Bush's private counsel, he was the White House counsel. He weaseled around the torture accords we have signed, instead of trying to explain to Bush why it was wrong. If you and Giancarlo are right, than why did the JAG's, for heaven's sake, get an independent outside opinion when faced with this travesty? They are not exactly Democratic liberals, now are they? Ned, while Giancarlo doesn't understand, I know you are smarter than this.

Plus, as I've mentioned before, the man is a public relations moron, and the War on Terror is also a battle for the minds of the everyday man in the Moslem world. First, he put it in writing? He really thought that is would stay secret, as many federal employees as have been screwed over by the Bush Administration? (an entire additional thread - I've worked in Air Traffic for 23 years, and the Reagan years pale to the way the Bush appointees treat career employees).

Even worse are the indications are that he really believed it, backpedaling not withstanding. The man is an idealogue, and a dangerous one at that. That or a whore, selling his principles for access to power - lawyers take an oath I believe to uphold the LAW, not churn out bogus opinoins to justify what their boss wants. No wonder Putin and Bush get along so well, guided democracy here we come.

	06-02-2005 00:18									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Define torture.

I'm not one to define torture. Doing so is a bit suspicious if you ask me. I know torture when I see it.

	06-02-2005 00:23									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I'm not one to define torture. Doing so is a bit suspicious if you ask me. I know torture when I see it.

Well, the definintion of torture is the whole issue, is it not? Torture is NOT defined anywhere in international law. That is what the G. memo's were saying.

	06-02-2005 00:24									#67
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Shawn, see my reply to Kid.

	06-02-2005 00:25									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Well, the definintion of torture is the whole issue, is it not? Torture is NOT defined anywhere in international law. That is what the G. memo's were saying.

Lucky for men like him. Now would you like to tell us why he should be our Attorney General.

	06-02-2005 00:34									#69
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According to Gonzales, the following picture is NOT torture. Yay for Torture Lite!

Attachment: ag_prison3.jpg
This has been downloaded 57 time(s).

	06-02-2005 00:46									#70
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I say torture should be defined as what a reasonable person thinks is 'extreme' pain. I really think that's why a word like 'extreme' is written into the law. Too bad our Senators and our dear Neddy are not reasonable.

	06-02-2005 00:54									#71
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Ned, I've got to go to sleep, I'm have to get up in under six hours for my next shift. The quote about anything short of damage that cause organ failure or death - come off it. Want me to break out my PDF's of the memos? While one can legitimately argue over abuse versus torture, this memo justifies torture. Period.

The JAG's knew it too, and unlike those poor dumb enlisted fools at Abu Graib, they knew exactly what they were being set up for and covered their butts. If they did not have serious doubts, then why did they get the hundred plus page legal opinion over the implementation of Gonzales memo? As far as I know that is the FIRST TIME in the history of our military. Ned - would you be willing to be held and treated by a foreign police force under the standards Gonzales set forth. Eletric shocks, maiming, cigarette burns, pulling out nails or teeth - every one of them is legal according to that memo.

It's like our Hiroshima argument, with me taking the pro-bombing side. Until we found the smoking gun, when the scientists went to the future Secretary of State wasn't it? Ned, the Gonzales memoes are indefensible. It has done terrible harm to the War on Terror, becoming a recruiting tool for the Moslem extremists. Gonzales betrayed the entire system of jurisprudence dating back to the foundation of our country. That has been what set us apart, to borrow the phrase, made us the shining light on this hill. Gonzales has helped the Bush administration shutter that light, and the success of terror may very well have caused us, the people of the US, to be complicit in putting it out.

	06-02-2005 00:59									#72
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quote: Originally posted by shawnmmcc Ned, I've got to go to sleep, I'm have to get up in under six hours for my next shift. The quote about anything short of damage that cause organ failure or death - come off it. Want me to break out my PDF's of the memos? While one can legitimately argue over abuse versus torture, this memo justifies torture. Period. The JAG's knew it too, and unlike those poor dumb enlisted fools at Abu Graib, they knew exactly what they were being set up for and covered their butts. If they did not have serious doubts, then why did they get the hundred plus page legal opinion over the implementation of Gonzales memo? As far as I know that is the FIRST TIME in the history of our military. Ned - would you be willing to be held and treated by a foreign police force under the standards Gonzales set forth. Eletric shocks, maiming, cigarette burns, pulling out nails or teeth - every one of them is legal according to that memo. It's like our Hiroshima argument, with me taking the pro-bombing side. Until we found the smoking gun, when the scientists went to the future Secretary of State wasn't it? Ned, the Gonzales memoes are indefensible. It has done terrible harm to the War on Terror, becoming a recruiting tool for the Moslem extremists. Gonzales betrayed the entire system of jurisprudence dating back to the foundation of our country. That has been what set us apart, to borrow the phrase, made us the shining light on this hill. Gonzales has helped the Bush administration shutter that light, and the success of terror may very well have caused us, the people of the US, to be complicit in putting it out.

As Powell adamantly tried to protest, that this is the first time in the history of the US military that the Geneva Conventions were knowingly circumvented.

Powell had the same arguments as those JAGs, that not only are there moral problems involved, but that it makes things more dangerous for our troops worldwide, and it is like a public relations miracle for the terrorist extremists.

	06-02-2005 03:14									#73
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Since I actually haven't read the memo, but have only heard about what it said, I think G. was saying that torture would include bodily harm and death. This does not mean that anything short of that is NOT torture. That leap is illogical.

	06-02-2005 03:26									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I say torture should be defined as what a reasonable person thinks is 'extreme' pain. I really think that's why a word like 'extreme' is written into the law. Too bad our Senators and our dear Neddy are not reasonable.

Actually, that is what the memo said as well. I just read it.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-sr...emo20020801.pdf

	06-02-2005 03:26									#75
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Shawn, your reading of the memo is wrong.

	06-02-2005 03:37									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker According to Gonzales, the following picture is NOT torture. Yay for Torture Lite!

One thing about that picture is that everyone can try that particular stress position at home. Assume the position, then try spending, say, 30 minutes that way. Then consider that you're not standing on rickety boxes, nor are you hooded, nor chained to the wall.

	06-02-2005 03:49									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Jaakko One thing about that picture is that everyone can try that particular stress position at home. Assume the position, then try spending, say, 30 minutes that way. Then consider that you're not standing on rickety boxes, nor are you hooded, nor chained to the wall.

Jaako, assume the position at home? I thought that the picture illustrated torture? If ordinary people can assume the position without pain, then I assume the Iraqi in the picture can as well.

	06-02-2005 03:50									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Actually, that is what the memo said as well. I just read it. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-sr...emo20020801.pdf

The problem is that they only call damage to organs extreme pain.

	06-02-2005 03:51									#79
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Ned,

What the hell is wrong with you? Of course assuming that position at home for a long time will be painfull. That's the point.

	06-02-2005 03:57									#80
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stress positions are considered a torture. It's not 'putting on a pressure to suspect'. It's torture. Gives you nice static pain. Fools can underestimate it though, but the only pain they ever got was getting it in the nuts by the second grader in elementary school.

Not ALL things are necessarily torture though..

But stress positions are LEGIT torture. By legit I mean that it is recognized as torture. This is basic knowledge. Just like if you are put into hot sand, it is torture. It's not 'putting on some heat'. Or doing the drowning thing. It's not 'psychological pressure'. I mean it is, but it is also torture.

	06-02-2005 03:57									#81
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Kid, who said anything about "a long time?"

	06-02-2005 03:57									#82
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Ned, if you're saying that what that picture depicts is not torture, would you please cut down your LSD consumption.

	06-02-2005 04:01									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka stress positions are considered a torture. It's not 'putting on a pressure to suspect'. It's torture. Gives you nice static pain. Fools can underestimate it though, but the only pain they ever got was getting it in the nuts by the second grader in elementary school. Not ALL things are necessarily torture though.. But stress positions are LEGIT torture. By legit I mean that it is recognized as torture. This is basic knowledge. Just like if you are put into hot sand, it is torture. It's not 'putting on some heat'. Or doing the drowning thing. It's not 'psychological pressure'. I mean it is, but it is also torture.

What about doing pushups or running until "it burns?"

	06-02-2005 04:05									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Ned, if you're saying that what that picture depicts is not torture, would you please cut down your LSD consumption.

Agathon, we are told by the multitude here that one must assume that position for a "long time" before there is excruciating pain. Others have said that the picture demonstrates, per se, torture. Now, I look at this from the point of view of a juror who has to convict someone beyond a reasonable doubt of torture:

The picture, by itself, only suggests the possibility of torture. We need more information before we can convict. For example: how long does it take before one begins to suffer "extreme pain?" Second, how long was this individual made to stand in that position?

	06-02-2005 04:06									#85
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Ned, I suggest you go learn about torture. If you are seriously challenging what I just described as torture, you know I could just come up with similar counter claims as 'well do you think apple is food?'. It is too trivial.

Push ups are not torture. Running is not torture. UNLESS the subject has some medical conditions making it painful. But at face value they are not torture.

Do you seriously not know what is torture or are you trying to blur the torture line to meet the requirements of making this easy news? Stress positions are KNOWN torture. Joking about is stupid, if you don't know what it is, go on and chain your hands ot a wall and hang 6 hours. Try how it feels.

Besides, funny you should mention to push up. It has been also used as a torture method but with added features.

The point is, you seem to be blurring the line of 'that doesn't hurt'. Stress positions HURT. If you don't believe it, then don't.

	06-02-2005 04:06									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Kid, who said anything about "a long time?"

You're topping yourself Ned. Why the hell do you think they put them in that position if it doesn't hurt?

	06-02-2005 04:09									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Agathon, we are told by the multitude here that one must assume that position for a "long time" before there is excruciating pain. Others have said that the picture demonstrates, per se, torture. Now, I look at this from the point of view of a juror who has to convict someone beyond a reasonable doubt of torture: The picture, by itself, only suggests the possibility of torture. We need more information before we can convict. For example: how long does it take before one begins to suffer "extreme pain?" Second, how long was this individual made to stand in that position?

You're the reason we need to get rid of the jury system.

	06-02-2005 04:09									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious You're the reason we need to get rid of the jury system.

Nah. We need juries composed only of lawyers.

	06-02-2005 04:12									#89
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BTW, wasn't that photo among the Abu Gharaib photos? If so, I believe this photo has nothing to do with anything approved by the White House and the people responsible are being prosecuted for violation of criminal law. Still, if I were a juror on that panel, I would want more proof than just the photo.

	06-02-2005 04:15									#90
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Well, I myself was talking purely about stress positions as method of torture, not that picture. Except that the position in that pic is stress position. Of course it takes some time to make it painful. But you admit stress positions as legit form of torture? If so, then I had no other claims.