07-02-2005 04:10									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Kid, you do watch Survivor do you not? They go a long way before they either win or they stop. Now, what permits them to stop?

I don't really watch that, but I'm sure if people were tortured on that show that I would hear about it. What are you talking about? You ask what permits them to stop. What does that have to do with torture. If they are permited to stop than it wouldn't be torture.

	07-02-2005 04:10									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Ned True. But clearly even while one of these stress endurance tests is underway, any contestant can stop at any time. The prisoner in the photo is not shackled. He can stop at any time.

Quoted for posterity.

	07-02-2005 04:12									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Ned The prisoner in the photo is not shackled. He can stop at any time.

ARE YOU ****ING SERIOUS?! DO YOU THINK HE IS UP THERE FOR HIS HEALTH?!

	07-02-2005 04:15									#124
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	07-02-2005 04:16									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I don't really watch that, but I'm sure if people were tortured on that show that I would hear about it. What are you talking about? You ask what permits them to stop. What does that have to do with torture. If they are permited to stop than it wouldn't be torture.

Now we are talking. If they can stop, it is not torture.

	07-02-2005 04:17									#126
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I wonder who Ahmed is going to send to the elimination round next??

Will it be Private Lindy for dragging him around with a dog leash while naked?

Or will it be Specialist Graner for tieing him up and punching the living daylights out of him for no reason!

Let's not underestimate the dog handlers either!!!!

I heard this might break the alliance!!!

	07-02-2005 04:18									#127
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Ned, you are so hopeless.

	07-02-2005 04:19									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious ARE YOU ****ING SERIOUS?! DO YOU THINK HE IS UP THERE FOR HIS HEALTH?!

No. But still he is NOT shackled. He can stand up if he wants to. Why he stays in that position and endures is something we can only speculate about. However, if the pain becomes too bad, I guarantee he will stop.

Now, there at this point, there is no difference between this and Survivor or Big Brother, is there?

When one tortures someone and wants to really inflict a lot of pain, one uses shackles.

	07-02-2005 04:19									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Now we are talking. If they can stop, it is not torture.

So your comparison means absolutley NOTHING.

thanks

	07-02-2005 04:20									#130
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Tribal Council tonight is going to be a b*tch. I've 50 bucks ridding on this in the company pot. Come on Graner! w00t!!

	07-02-2005 04:20									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Ned No. But still he is NOT shackled. He can stand up if he wants to. Why he stays in that position and endures is something we can only speculate about. However, if the pain becomes too bad, I guarantee he will stop. Now, there at this point, there is no difference between this and Survivor or Big Brother, is there? When one tortures someone and wants to really inflict a lot of pain, one uses shackles.

You are so ****ing full of it.

If there was not a reason for him to be up there, he wouldn't be there in the first place. Nobody in their right mind would willingly be up there unless they are being coerced.

Stop being a d1ck.

	07-02-2005 04:21									#132
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quote: Originally posted by DRoseDARs Tribal Council tonight is going to be a b*tch. I've 50 bucks ridding on this in the company pot. Come on Graner! w00t!!

	07-02-2005 04:35									#133
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Ted, you miss the point entirely. The question is whether this is torture. If he can stop, he is not being tortured. That is what even the people who are on your side of the argument agree upon.

	07-02-2005 04:38									#134
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Your definition is not accepted by anybody.

Secondly "people on my side" do not agree with you.

	07-02-2005 04:38									#135
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Finally, your argument falls apart completely because you limit coercion as being only possible when someone is "tied down."

	07-02-2005 04:42									#136
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HOW ABOUT THESE NED WHEN DO THESE EPISODES APPEAR ON SURVIVOR????

	07-02-2005 04:49									#137
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That ****er in the third photo is not fit to wear the damn American flag.

	07-02-2005 05:13									#138
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Ted, Again you seem to studiously miss the point. The issue is whether Gonzales or the US Congress endorses torture. These are ALL pictures from Abu Gharaib, which involves criminal conduct by individuals in violation of US policy. These criminals are being prosecuted. This is consistent with upholding the Geneva conventions, not inconsistent with the conventions.

	07-02-2005 05:16									#139
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Secondly "people on my side" do not agree with you.

	07-02-2005 05:21									#140
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Ted, Again you seem to studiously miss the point. The issue is whether Gonzales or the US Congress endorses torture. These are ALL pictures from Abu Gharaib, which involves criminal conduct by individuals in violation of US policy. These criminals are being prosecuted. This is consistent with upholding the Geneva conventions, not inconsistent with the conventions.

You just spent like 10 posts defending the first picture I posted as not being torture and now you say the issue is something else?

Secondly the "US Policy" is criminal in itself after the Geneva Conventions were dismissed. There is a direct link, which has already been posted many times already, from Gonzales' memo, to what happened at Abu Gharib.

Colin Powell and some very Senior level JAGS have stated this many times.

	07-02-2005 05:23									#141
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quote: Originally posted by Ned No. But still he is NOT shackled. He can stand up if he wants to. Why he stays in that position and endures is something we can only speculate about. However, if the pain becomes too bad, I guarantee he will stop. Now, there at this point, there is no difference between this and Survivor or Big Brother, is there? When one tortures someone and wants to really inflict a lot of pain, one uses shackles.

You know, if you replace the phrase "if he wants to" with "if they let him" then suddenly it makes more sense why he's standing like that.

	07-02-2005 05:26									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Starchild You know, if you replace the phrase "if he wants to" with "if they let him" then suddenly it makes more sense why he's standing like that.

True, that is why shackles are normally used with torture.

	07-02-2005 05:27									#143
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Why bother with shackles when we've got no idea who's standing behind the camera, what they're aiming at him or what they're telling him the consequences of standing up will be?

	07-02-2005 05:31									#144
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The bottom line, there clearly are incidents of criminal misconduct at Abu Gharaib. There has been no evidence submitted in any of the criminal trials that anyone in power authorized what was going on. At least one general is being disciplined/prosecuted for failure to properly supervise/train her troops.

The fact that the abuses at Abu Gharaib took place late at night, out of view of officers, is of critical importance in this. They knew what they were doing was wrong.

When one reviews the "memo," it clearly concludes that infliction of excruciating pain is torture. It does not advocate this, as others (here) contend. The definition that this is torture clearly excludes the use of excruciating pain.

The left, as usual, has no basis for the charge against Gonzales. A lot of propaganda and hysteria (as in Farenheit 0/11) does not make up for lack of facts in support of their anti-Americanism.

	07-02-2005 05:34									#145
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Yeah, cop out and start claiming anti-Americanism.

**** YOU

	07-02-2005 05:36									#146
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Looks pretty out of sight to me.

	07-02-2005 05:37									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Ned When one reviews the "memo," it clearly concludes that infliction of excruciating pain is torture. It does not advocate this, as others (here) contend. The definition that this is torture clearly excludes the use of excruciating pain.

If they weren't advocating it, why would they even be interested in it???????????????

	07-02-2005 06:25									#148
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You musta got manure fur yer brains!

	07-02-2005 06:26									#149
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Yeah, I hear you Ted. So do the enemies of the US. Look at what they have to say about Abu Gharaib:

"President Bush has no authority to accuse Iran of sponsoring terrorism while the U.S. supports "Zionist terrorists" and runs military prisons that use "torture," Tehran's Foreign Ministry spokesman said on Sunday."

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast...bush/index.html

What you and other Dems are doing by stating that Abu Gharaib is official US policy is undermining the US war on terror and giving aid and comfort to the enemy.

	07-02-2005 06:31									#150
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I think at this point we should call it the War of Terror, and call you a supporter of it.