06-02-2005 03:58									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison Well Kidicious I very much get the impression that a lot of these right wingers take up their views rather arbitrarily because bear in mind, what good is being absolutely loaded if you work so much you never get to enjoy it and you're always knackered and stressed?

Actually it's a cultural thing. It goes back to the Puritans. The thing is we aren't breaking up prairie sod anymore. DinoDoc is primative. We don't have to work that much. It's actually bad for our society. It's creating unemployment and underemployment.

	06-02-2005 04:02									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker 40 hours a week isn't anything near "ridiculous hours". Many, many people manage it just fine.

And in france, everyone manages 35 hours a week just fine... Maybe they are just more productive and efficient. Or maybe there's just alot of redundant bureaucracy here in north america. Or maybe certain cultures just like to over produce for the sake of it. *shrug*

	06-02-2005 04:02									#33
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO So...my 60+ hours a week is bad?

Yes, you should spend more time working and less time posting here

	06-02-2005 04:04									#34
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Exactly. I believe that another benefit that occurred when the French changed the law was the increase in leisure spending too with the extra time which created jobs in it's own right, and more jobs created with people working lesser hours. It's the problem of there being no element of planning and leaving it to the elements. Cut the hours and keep the pay the same and the companies will b*tch and moan. It means you can employ more people and the purchasing power of the general populace is greater, therefore surely increasing demand and employment further still? It's all a system at the end of the day that feeds back on itself.

	06-02-2005 04:04									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie Yes, you should spend more time working and less time posting here

I'm sure my boss would agree. Every time I get a minute, I always pull up 'Poly. All my employees don't even ask what it is anymore!

	06-02-2005 04:05									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison Exactly. I believe that another benefit that occurred when the French changed the law was the increase in leisure spending too with the extra time which created jobs in it's own right, and more jobs created with people working lesser hours. It's the problem of there being no element of planning and leaving it to the elements. Cut the hours and keep the pay the same and the companies will b*tch and moan. It means you can employ more people and the purchasing power of the general populace is greater, therefore surely increasing demand and employment further still? It's all a system at the end of the day that feeds back on itself.

Is that the laffer curve of employment?

	06-02-2005 04:08									#37
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I've thought about the oxymoron of Swedish union leaders. They earn a salary that's about 10-20 times that of their members. Then they sit in negotiations until 0500 in the morning to discuss workday shortages...

	06-02-2005 04:11									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Actually it's a cultural thing. It goes back to the Puritans. The thing is we aren't breaking up prairie sod anymore. DinoDoc is primative. We don't have to work that much. It's actually bad for our society. It's creating unemployment and underemployment.

And the cycle of boom and bust.


Unfortunately if someone tried to get European style labor reforms passed the right-wingers would be screaming "COMMUNIST!!!" in no time. Apperently real, red blooded Americans let themselves be abused by thier employers, anything less and you are an evil, God-hating, un-American, commie-liberal who hates freedom and loves terrorism.

	06-02-2005 04:16									#39
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Pay the hard-working, whip the lazy

	06-02-2005 04:18									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident raising the workweek will wreck havok on their unemployment problem.

How do you figure that when lowering it hasn't even had the effect of lowering the unemployment rate the Socialist government touted it would when they lowered it? It has increased the cost of labor retarding the growth of employment even further.

	06-02-2005 04:26									#41
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Damn those pesky economic units for having weaknesses...

	06-02-2005 04:28									#42
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The big problem is everyone now works 1/8 less but they get paid the same. It just made people less productive and more expensive and economically that isn't good. That said the French work more hours then the Dutch. The dutch are the real slackers.

	06-02-2005 04:30									#43
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Uhh.... folks.... nothing stops people from taking 35 hours per week jobs here in the States, or from demanding more vacation days. And some places do offer that. The French require that BY LAW. How can that be fair? What about people who need lots of money, and want to work as many hours a week as they can (They do exist, people who have run up too much credit card debt and need to reverse themselves)?

If people really wanted shorter hours, nothing is stopping them from demanding it. Heck, I know that I, personally, value vacation over money generally, and when my annual review comes around, I'll be asking for more vacation time in lieu of a slightly larger raise. But I can easily see people who'd want the opposite.

To put it in economics-ese, let people choose their own way to maximize their utility, and not assume that everyone else's definition of happiness is the same as your own.

	06-02-2005 04:30									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin It just made people less productive and more expensive and economically that isn't good.

Yeah, they're having such a hard time there's riots in the streets so that they can work more hours... oh wait...

	06-02-2005 04:34									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison Pretty much ditto. Life's a b*tch ain't it?

Yeah,. I even got my boss on my back because I like what I'm doing and have too much overtime (flex) - life sucks

	06-02-2005 04:36									#46
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quote: it's glad to see a society that knows how valuable time is, and that it shouldn't be wasted working.

You mean so you can watch an extra hour of TV a day? That's what is going to happen. People leaving at 4 instead of 5 will just get some more TV time in. It's not the time is going to be used for some great projects!

And talking of leisure time, I'm sure many American workers actually do work 35 hours a week or less... they just spend 40 hours at the office .

	06-02-2005 04:39									#47
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The 40 hour work week has worked fine. I don't see why 35 hours is different. People made the same arguments when the 40 hour work week was created.

	06-02-2005 04:40									#48
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Imran, that's my main issue too.. you know.. it's just doing your work slowly, or looking busy often times. Some jobs require you to put on that time and lots of it. But many jobs really.. don't.

	06-02-2005 04:42									#49
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quote: Uhh.... folks.... nothing stops people from taking 35 hours per week jobs here in the States, or from demanding more vacation days. And some places do offer that. The French require that BY LAW. How can that be fair? What about people who need lots of money, and want to work as many hours a week as they can (They do exist, people who have run up too much credit card debt and need to reverse themselves)? If people really wanted shorter hours, nothing is stopping them from demanding it. Heck, I know that I, personally, value vacation over money generally, and when my annual review comes around, I'll be asking for more vacation time in lieu of a slightly larger raise. But I can easily see people who'd want the opposite. To put it in economics-ese, let people choose their own way to maximize their utility, and not assume that everyone else's definition of happiness is the same as your own.

Uhhh, in this country, escpecially if you are an unskilled worker with no union, you work how many hours your boss tells you to work, otherwise he will just find someone else who will do those hours.

	06-02-2005 04:47									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Imran, that's my main issue too.. you know.. it's just doing your work slowly, or looking busy often times. Some jobs require you to put on that time and lots of it. But many jobs really.. don't.

Yeah, some jobs you have to work the whole way through. But a lot of them you have the whole hanging around the watercooler, BSing with your work friends. If you had to leave at 4 (lot of places don't want you working for overtime), you may not have time for all that interaction, which some people probably enjoy more than getting nagged by their wife .

	06-02-2005 04:52									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: it's glad to see a society that knows how valuable time is, and that it shouldn't be wasted working. You mean so you can watch an extra hour of TV a day? That's what is going to happen. People leaving at 4 instead of 5 will just get some more TV time in. It's not the time is going to be used for some great projects!

You have to remember that we're talking about France, and not the USA. It's true that in the USA people would just use the time to stuff their faces with big macs and watch king of queens. But in France the time is probably spent reading literature in cafes, writing poetry, or maybe a spot of painting.

	06-02-2005 04:53									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison "Manage"?. With modern methods and automation, people shouldn't just have to manage, people should have a decent work life balance where they don't feel like they are constantly chained to the job. Try it when you've got a family to look after, you need all the time you've got, plus the money.

yay for arguing semantics

	06-02-2005 04:55									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka 1 week vacation a year? Where do they work, gunatamo bay? That's sick ****. 35 hour week is plenty. If you can't do your job in 7 hours a day, then I guess you are being too lazy.

that's so wrong it's funny. My dad, and most of the people at his firm, work more like ~50 hour weeks (add in 10-15 hours for commuting), and they really aren't lazy.

	06-02-2005 04:57									#54
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd And in france, everyone manages 35 hours a week just fine...

Uh, yeah, generally it's easier to manage when you have to work fewer hours.

quote: Maybe they are just more productive and efficient.

I highly doubt that.

	06-02-2005 04:58									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker 40 hours a week isn't anything near "ridiculous hours". Many, many people manage it just fine.

My Dad works 70.

	06-02-2005 04:58									#56
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Uhhh, in this country, escpecially if you are an unskilled worker with no union, you work how many hours your boss tells you to work, otherwise he will just find someone else who will do those hours.

Well, then you find a job that does let you work fewer hours. Don't tell me part time or less than full time jobs don't exist, as my mother worked in those type jobs when I was young so she'd have more time for me. If her bosses had ever tried to pull something like that, she'd probably work 3 more months to see if things would change, then find a new job.

As for being "unskilled," yes, unskilled laborers have fewer job options. Why do you want to make them even fewer? What about an unskilled laborer who has 3 kids, a wife who can't find work, and still wants to put his kids through college? He may be willing to work 50 hours a week to earn the money necessary. But France won't let him, because the government's infinite wisdom has decided that he'd rather have time off, not working, then being able to support his family.

Anyway, you can find jobs here that will work you anywhere from 10 hours a week (a friend of mine is earning 30,000 + for a 10 hour a week job, which isn't bad at all) to 70 hours. Find one that suits you. I fail to see how giving people lots of choice to choose the job that fits them best hurts them.

	06-02-2005 04:59									#57
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd You have to remember that we're talking about France, and not the USA. It's true that in the USA people would just use the time to stuff their faces with big macs and watch king of queens. But in France the time is probably spent reading literature in cafes, writing poetry, or maybe a spot of painting.

	06-02-2005 04:59									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker that's so wrong it's funny. My dad, and most of the people at his firm, work more like ~50 hour weeks (add in 10-15 hours for commuting), and they really aren't lazy.

No, that's kind of stupid unless you are paid a lot for overtime.

	06-02-2005 05:00									#59
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There's two opposing forces. One force is the increasing cost of labor. The other force is the increasing demand for goods and services. I say that it's much like increases in the minimum wage, except with the minimum wage the benefits are only short term - you have to keep increasing the minimum wage to keep up with inflation. If you reduce the work week, the economy will adjust but you only have to lower the work week every once in a while as productivity changes.

	06-02-2005 05:01									#60
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Which is why you make so much more than him, right? They aren't paid by the hour. My dad and most of the partners have a somewhat vested interest in bringing in more money, as all of the profits get PAID OUT to them. And you get bonuses for bringing in more money - my dad was one of about 20 partners (out of about 750), IIRC, that had over a million dollars in billings last year.

EDIT: xpost