06-02-2005 08:15									#121
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker If you're short-sided enough only to look at the most immediate effects possible. As we've mentioned, we've been industrializing for over a century and unemployment has probably gone down.

Explain other effects that I haven't mentioned.

quote: Africa. Pwned.

What part of generally don't you understand? There are other factors obviously.

	06-02-2005 08:16									#122
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

The world unemployment rate is 30% right now according to the world fact book. I just have to find the historicl rate now.

	06-02-2005 08:16									#123
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Not if the company goes out of business due to overseas competition that isn't so restricted and has to fire everyone.

Obviously france (and other countries) haven't had this problem, as they are still a prosperous first would country. I guess it's only the efficient and industrious french population that can pull it off though, eh?


You would think they'd all be poor, their country in shambles, their currency in decline, and they'd all be groveling at the feet of american corporations to allow them to work twice the hours for... well, the same ammount.

	06-02-2005 08:17									#124
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Explain other effects that I haven't mentioned.

Does it matter? Who cares about theory when you have evidence?

quote: What part of generally don't you understand? There are other factors obviously.

South America. India. China. And so on, and so forth. Third world countries, generally, have the lowest labor costs AND the highest unemployment.

	06-02-2005 08:18									#125
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Yay for circular reasoning. xpost

That's not circular reasoning. It's pointing out the obvious.

	06-02-2005 08:19									#126
	Got spare money?

Except that I was demonstrating that a 50-hour workweek wasn't a "debilitating effect". You're saying a 50-hour workweek is bad - why? - because it's a 50-hour workweek, of course.

	06-02-2005 08:26									#127
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Does it matter? Who cares about theory when you have evidence?

So you can pick and choose your evidence, and ignore all the rest?

quote: South America. India. China. And so on, and so forth. Third world countries, generally, have the lowest labor costs AND the highest unemployment.

Of course, they are developing countries. The effects of development are greater than the effects of labor costs and globalization.

	06-02-2005 08:27									#128
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Except that I was demonstrating that a 50-hour workweek wasn't a "debilitating effect". You're saying a 50-hour workweek is bad - why? - because it's a 50-hour workweek, of course.

I see it's not easy to point out the obvious to you.

I know you like semantics, so let's clear that part up first: I wasn't saying that a 50 hour work week was a debilitating effect itself, nor where you saying that it wasn't one - you where saying that it had none.

Anyways, what I was saying is that the most obvious debilitating effect that comes as a result of it, is that it consumes 50 hours of every week of your able working life.

	06-02-2005 08:29									#129
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

That hardly qualifies as debilitating, if it can be done easily without the participant minding.

	06-02-2005 08:30									#130
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious So you can pick and choose your evidence, and ignore all the rest?

You can introduce any evidence you want, if you think it's incomplete.

quote: Of course, they are developing countries. The effects of development are greater than the effects of labor costs and globalization.

Give an example of a nondeveloping country with very low labor costs.

	06-02-2005 08:36									#131
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker quote: Originally posted by Kidicious So you can pick and choose your evidence, and ignore all the rest? You can introduce any evidence you want, if you think it's incomplete.

Let me ask you this. Where would you rather build your factory - in Africa or China? People are building factories in China for obvious reason. Don't pretend to be so ignorant.

quote: Give an example of a nondeveloping country with very low labor costs.

What's your point?

	06-02-2005 08:38									#132
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Let me ask you this. Where would you rather build your factory - in Africa or China? People are building factories in China for obvious reason. Don't pretend to be so ignorant.

People are building factories in Africa, too. However, China has a better infrastructure to support industry.

	06-02-2005 08:39									#133
	Got spare money?

quote: What's your point?

That you've made a stupid distinction because it doesn't exist in reality.

	06-02-2005 08:41									#134
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker quote: Let me ask you this. Where would you rather build your factory - in Africa or China? People are building factories in China for obvious reason. Don't pretend to be so ignorant. People are building factories in Africa, too. However, China has a better infrastructure to support industry.

Exactly, but one of the reasons they build factories in China is because of the cheap labor. How can you possibly argue otherwise.

	06-02-2005 08:43									#135
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker quote: What's your point? That you've made a stupid distinction because it doesn't exist in reality.

You lost me again.

	06-02-2005 09:30									#136
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker That hardly qualifies as debilitating

yes, consuming 50 hours of your week is not debilitating at all.

Well, that is true if you live to work, rather than work to live, as was said eariler, I suppose. But then, really, who cares about the drones anyways? Concern should only be given to those people who can actually feel life.

	06-02-2005 10:30									#137
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Can someone explain to me why you all are defending a policy that hasn't had the effect it was sold as providing and has in fact hindered the very thing it was supposed to have helped?

	06-02-2005 10:33									#138
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Exactly, but one of the reasons they build factories in China is because of the cheap labor. How can you possibly argue otherwise.

That's not why they build in China as opposed to Africa.

Where have I said jobs aren't going to China? In fact, that's what I did say, earlier. Jobs moving to a place != low unemployment.

	06-02-2005 10:34									#139
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by General Ludd yes, consuming 50 hours of your week is not debilitating at all. Well, that is true if you live to work, rather than work to live, as was said eariler, I suppose. But then, really, who cares about the drones anyways? Concern should only be given to those people who can actually feel life.

How is it particularly different from 35? Why is 40 or 50 specifically bad?

	06-02-2005 10:57									#140
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Yeah, even if you work 20 hours a week, you are still working to live. It's silly to you aren't, unless you are welfare check collecting do-nothing.

	06-02-2005 11:12									#141
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I work 15 hours a week . I pay all my bills and dont take any money from the government'. Yes I'm not rich... I don't care, I enjoy thoroughly every last hour of free time i have. And I don't use all the hours I got by working below the magic number of 40 hours by watching TV Imran

	06-02-2005 11:34									#142
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious As I remember Oerdin makes quite a bit of money not working, and I bet DanS does too.

I'm unemployed but I imagine I still make more then you.

Besides I shall be employed again soon. I've got two interviews coming up next week both of which are well paying.

	06-02-2005 11:50									#143
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Locutus Yet per capita we are among the wealthiest countries in the world and are also at or near the top of the ranking in terms of welfare, happiness and life expentency. We must be doing something right 35 hrs a week 30 hrs a week

Alexander's Horse linked to recent PPP figures and hours worked per worker per year. The Dutch worked 40% less then Americans and made a PPP $26k while Americans worked worked more but made a PPP $36k. I think on an income gained per hour of work bases the Dutch are ahead of us though the Americans still make significantly more.

The big losers were the Australians who worked more hours then anyone else in the 1st world but made some of the lowest incomes (something like PPP$20k).

	06-02-2005 12:39									#144
	Got spare money?

trying to figure out 3rd world unemployment rates is useless - everyone is underemployed, and theres no way china has only 10% unemployment.

	06-02-2005 12:43									#145
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I have the exact figures Oerdin (no surprise there eh?)

Productivty in OECD members, measured by GDP per hour worked (2002 @ PPPs) and expressed as a % of USA:

1st, Norway 132%
2nd, Luxembourg 125%
3rd, France 120%
4th Belgium 114%
5th, Netherlands 109%
6th, Ireland 106%
7th, Austria 102%
8th, Germany 102%
9th, United States 100%
10th, Denmark 98%
11th, Italy 96%
12th, Finland 92%
13th, Switzerland 91%
14th, United Kingdom 90%
15th, Sweden 89%
16th, Australia 83%
17th, Canada 83%
18th, Spain 77%
19th, Japan 75%
20th, Iceland 72%
21st, New Zealand 65%
22nd, Greece 65%
23rd, Portugal 54%
24th, Hungary 52%
25th, Czech Republic 42%
26th, Mexico 39%
27th, Slovakia 39%
28th, Poland 38%
29th, South Korea 31%
30th, Turkey 26%

The full series is here

Last edited by el freako on 06-02-2005 at 12:49

	06-02-2005 13:27									#146
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: And why do I think that DanS won't agree with the 35 hour workweek either?

I'm not averse to a 35 hour work week in principle. In the US, we've made much larger percentage reductions in the past, after all. We moved slowly from a 6-day/12 hour daily work week business custom to a 5-day/8 hour daily work week business custom (a 45% reduction). FYI, there are still some industries that adhere to a 6-day work week.

However, for the last couple of decades, the decrease has taken a pause in the US, while it has continued outside the anglophone area. I question the wisdom of swimming against the tide created by the US and the emerging economies. To mix my metaphors, it's clear that no country is an island with regard to competition. In addition, the French get much more vacation than Americans, so it's not merely a question of the number of hours in a work week.

I also question the wisdom of mandating the change from the government. The government is large enough in France that if it instituted a 35-hour workweek for government employees, eventually that practice likely would filter through to industry, as the business climate permitted.

Lastly, it doesn't seem to make sense to lower the amount of time that the French work, considering that fewer workers will be supporting more retirees as the years go by. To get a good sense of what's going on, it probably would make more sense to look at this as the total number of hours worked per capita per year, which would factor in the impact of retirement and vacations.

	06-02-2005 13:41									#147
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Uhh.... folks.... nothing stops people from taking 35 hours per week jobs here in the States, or from demanding more vacation days. And some places do offer that. The French require that BY LAW. How can that be fair? What about people who need lots of money, and want to work as many hours a week as they can (They do exist, people who have run up too much credit card debt and need to reverse themselves)?

Finally, someone else who got it... nothing wrong with short work-weeks if you can live with the money you got from the hours, but why not allow some people to work longer if they truly want to?

	06-02-2005 14:37									#148
	Got spare money?

Wow, the US is surprisingly high up on that list.

	06-02-2005 15:01									#149
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Yet per capita we are among the wealthiest countries in the world and are also at or near the top of the ranking in terms of welfare, happiness and life expentency. We must be doing something right

Shell.

	06-02-2005 15:03									#150
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker I spend more than 35 hours a week in school.

That's not 35 hours working, is it? Factor in time spent staring thunderstruck at the budding bodies of your female colleagues, and helpless insecurity about whether your genitals are ever going to come up to scratch, and you're looking at about 6 hours of actual work.