07-02-2005 22:40									#151
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara No milk (cheese) and meat together, as you well know.

No eating of a calf with its mothers milk. If youre gonna exclude interpretation, or any notion of oral torah, as the fundies do, you dont have a lot to play with.

	07-02-2005 22:44									#152
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara They have their own, different reasons. Wanting one overarching explanation for all people isn't fair. We're talking about a particular, and politically powerful, segment of the U.S. electorate.

a single explanation isnt required, but i see no need to draw some non obvious deductions from a particular religious doctrine when other explanations are sufficient. This is like the right wing loonies who try to deduce historical instance of Muslim extremism and antisemitism from particular Koranic passages. In the absense of a real social correlation, its just story telling.

	07-02-2005 22:50									#153
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In particular I see no evidence that fundie christians were particularly opposed to the conservationist policies of say, Theodore Roosevelt. Their hostility to the enviro movement is a product of the 1960s and 70s, when their sense of cultural besiegement led them to alliance with the right, and when the enviro movement became associated with other cultural forces of change. It was a natural alliance building. It would be surprising if they HADNT become antienviro.

Alliance building often trumps ideological consistency. Ideology can be modified to make sense of necessary alliances, among christians as well as among Stalinists

	07-02-2005 23:22									#154
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LotM,

I have a hard time seperating fundie christians from what you call the right. Progressive christians supported conservation. Are you saying that fundie christians were what were known as progressive christians?

	07-02-2005 23:31									#155
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious LotM, I have a hard time seperating fundie christians from what you call the right. Progressive christians supported conservation. Are you saying that fundie christians were what were known as progressive christians?

fundie christians are those who believe in the literal truth of the bible, and are found particularly in certain denominations. IIUC, they tended to vote for Democrats during the 1930's and 1940s and 1950s, as did most people of their lower income levels. There was no "Christian right" at that time - both GOP and Dems were led by non-fundamentalist, but generally christian members of mainstream churches. Religion (apart from the issue of anti-Catholicism) was not a huge part of US politics at the time.

Fundies at the time were not "progressive" they didnt read Harvey Cox, or talk about stewardship, or any of that. They simply voted their pocketbooks and took a relatively quietist approach to activism (IE they werent activist at all)

	08-02-2005 00:07									#156
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark fundie christians are those who believe in the literal truth of the bible, and are found particularly in certain denominations. IIUC, they tended to vote for Democrats during the 1930's and 1940s and 1950s, as did most people of their lower income levels. There was no "Christian right" at that time - both GOP and Dems were led by non-fundamentalist, but generally christian members of mainstream churches. Religion (apart from the issue of anti-Catholicism) was not a huge part of US politics at the time. Fundies at the time were not "progressive" they didnt read Harvey Cox, or talk about stewardship, or any of that. They simply voted their pocketbooks and took a relatively quietist approach to activism (IE they werent activist at all)

But were the progressives fundies? You seem to be saying they were. Conservationism was a progressive movement. So it seems strange to me that you would say that fundies were not opposed to conservationism, especially while saying that fundies were not progressives. Can you explain?

edit: And are you sure that fundies tended to vote Democratic in the 40s and 50s?

	08-02-2005 00:15									#157
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious But were the progressives fundies?

Some of them, yes. Consider Williams Jenning Byran.

	08-02-2005 00:19									#158
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Some of them, yes. Consider Williams Jenning Byran.

My opinion of him would be much higher if it wasn't for the Scopes trial (thats the one where a schoolteacher broke the law by teaching evolution).

	08-02-2005 00:20									#159
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious But were the progressives fundies? You seem to be saying they were. Conservationism was a progressive movement. So it seems strange to me that you would say that fundies were not opposed to conservationism, especially while saying that fundies were not progressives. Can you explain? edit: And are you sure that fundies tended to vote Democratic in the 40s and 50s?

I think of "progressives" as the leaders and activists in the (fuzzily defined) progressive movements. Fundamentalists as a rule were NOT activists in that era. I wouldnt call everyone who voted for FDR as a progressive - you end up saying some really silly things if you talk that way.

	08-02-2005 00:26									#160
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious edit: And are you sure that fundies tended to vote Democratic in the 40s and 50s?

i have no sources at hand, and this is not the kind of thing you can google on (religion, voting, FDR tends to bring up the usual claptrap about contemporary issues) but I dont think what i said is particularly controversial.

	08-02-2005 00:32									#161
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" To the extent that the Christian Right participated in national political life after William Jennings Bryan's eclipse, its sympathies remained with the Democratic party. The alliance between theological conservatives and the more liberal of the national parties can be explained largely in historical, regional, and class terms. The force of tradition kept theological conservatives firmly attached to the party that had reestablished white political dominance in the wake of Radical Republican Reconstruction. The linkage was further cemented in the 1930s by the popularity of New Deal social welfare programs that attacked poverty and agricultural distress in the region (Billington and Clark 1991; Allinsmith and Allinsmith 1948). And, although the states rights revolt at the 1948 Democratic National Convention had demonstrated the capacity of the civil rights issue to draw southern whites away from a Democratic allegiance, the partisan impact of that controversy was checked by the similarity of the Democratic and Republican positions until the 1960s.
The first stirrings of change in the pattern of Christian Right politics were visible in the presidential elections of the 1960s. When the Democratic party nominated a Catholic for president in 1960, again reflecting a long-standing antipathy toward Roman Catholics, large numbers of white, church-going southern Protestants defected to the Republican candidate, Richard Nixon (Converse 1966; Dawidowicz and Goldstein 1974, 41-48). In 1964, the same parts of the country that had given William Jennings Bryan his greatest margins of support, responded favorably to the candidacy of Republican Senator Barry Goldwater (Burnham 1968). And in 1968 George Wallace's independent presidential candidacy showed extraordinary strength among southern whites belonging to theologically conservative denominations (Orum 1970)."

	08-02-2005 00:41									#162
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You're correct. Very interesting.

	08-02-2005 02:51									#163
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Here's an interesting study. According to this conservative protestants favor programs for the poor as much as members of the general population, and favor them more than moderate protestants.



Sociology and Religion

quote: Figure 1 presents an overview of religious group support for government economic assistance measures.(2) It shows that Liberal and Moderate Protestants, Jews, Unitarians, and Mormons receive negative scores, indicating that members of these religious families show less support than the population as a whole for government action to reduce income inequality and improve the standard of living. Conservative Protestants, Catholics, and Nonaffiliates score near the national mean on this index. Jehovah's Witnesses and Black Protestants show relatively strong support for government assistance efforts.

	08-02-2005 04:03									#164
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quote: " To the extent that the Christian Right participated in national political life after William Jennings Bryan's eclipse, its sympathies remained with the Democratic party. The alliance between theological conservatives and the more liberal of the national parties can be explained largely in historical, regional, and class terms. The force of tradition kept theological conservatives firmly attached to the party that had reestablished white political dominance in the wake of Radical Republican Reconstruction. The linkage was further cemented in the 1930s by the popularity of New Deal social welfare programs that attacked poverty and agricultural distress in the region (Billington and Clark 1991; Allinsmith and Allinsmith 1948). And, although the states rights revolt at the 1948 Democratic National Convention had demonstrated the capacity of the civil rights issue to draw southern whites away from a Democratic allegiance, the partisan impact of that controversy was checked by the similarity of the Democratic and Republican positions until the 1960s. The first stirrings of change in the pattern of Christian Right politics were visible in the presidential elections of the 1960s. When the Democratic party nominated a Catholic for president in 1960, again reflecting a long-standing antipathy toward Roman Catholics, large numbers of white, church-going southern Protestants defected to the Republican candidate, Richard Nixon (Converse 1966; Dawidowicz and Goldstein 1974, 41-48). In 1964, the same parts of the country that had given William Jennings Bryan his greatest margins of support, responded favorably to the candidacy of Republican Senator Barry Goldwater (Burnham 1968). And in 1968 George Wallace's independent presidential candidacy showed extraordinary strength among southern whites belonging to theologically conservative denominations (Orum 1970)."

In other words, fundamentalist Christians are racist crapbags.

	08-02-2005 04:13									#165
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The interesting thing is that from FDR (or was it Wilson) up to Kennedy they we should beleive that they voted for the progressive economic party. Wilson was a rascist and one could say that FDR was too though.

	08-02-2005 04:29									#166
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Here's some disturbing information. They are 97% white, which isn't suprising, but they are highly educated, and they are either 'new class professionals' or small business owners.

Gender - Male 62%
Race - White 97%
Marital Status - Married 85%
Region
Northeast 22%
Midwest 20%
West 22%
South 36%
Age
Under 35 yrs 12%
35 to 50 yrs 46%
51 to 65 yrs 26%
Over 65 yrs 16%
Education
High school or less 8%
Some college 22%
College graduate 23%
Post-grad degree 47%
Occupation
New Class professionals 34%
Technical professionals 12%
Business managers 7%
Small business 18%
Clerical/blue collar 6%
Housewife 9%
Retired 14%
Annual
Income Under $25,000 10%
$25,000-$50,000 25%
$50,000-$75,000 26%
$75,000-$150,000 24%
Over $150,000 15%

	08-02-2005 06:32									#167
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quote: Originally posted by Whoha A spiritual being isn't going to be too worried about gamma particles.

... this sounds like the premise for a new line of comic books:

Jesus, descending to Earth to fight the followers of Satan, is caught in a nuclear explosion and bathed in gamma rays. Rather than killing Jesus, he finds that, when he becomes angry, he is transformed from mild mannered Jesus Christ into the Incredible Jesus! The Incredible Jesus is armed with magical Jesus powers AND super strength, but cursed with hideous mutant deformaties and the intellect of a child. Will his followers still accept the Incredible Jesus? Will he be able to defeat Satan and his underlings, General Thunderbolt and President George W. Bush? You'll find out in the next exciting issue of: THE INCREDIBLE JESUS!!!

(yeah, I know that was lame)

	08-02-2005 06:43									#168
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quote: Originally posted by CyberShy - The 7th king (Rev 17) has come and gone (Hitler)

I have a few questions regarding your post, but I'll start with these: What are the criteria when deciding who will be the kings? Why is Hitler the 7th King? Hitler was a murderous dictator, but so was Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Sadaam, and many others. Why is Hitler significant enough to be the "7th King?" Who were the other 6 kings?

	08-02-2005 07:37									#169
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quote: Originally posted by CyberShy IQ is to measure intelligence EQ is to measure emtional intelligence. I score heigh on both scales and still I believe that Jesus might very wel return within the next 50 years.

IQ is quite bogus, and EQ is at least 10 times worse.

	08-02-2005 08:03									#170
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quote: Do you realize the policy implications of this? There's no reason to plan for the future, cuz there isn't going to be one. We don't need social security because God will provide in the new millenium. We don't need to protect the environment, because God will provide. We don't need to worry about racking up an unpayable debt, cuz it won't need to be repaid! Christians are destroying America!

Why is this so radical?

“Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal.

For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."

“Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes? Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life?"

"o do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own."

	08-02-2005 08:09									#171
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I'm actually with BK on this. Destroy America!

	08-02-2005 08:09									#172
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As for the divisions between Fundies, and Catholics, is it possible for someone to be both?

	08-02-2005 08:41									#173
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi As for the divisions between Fundies, and Catholics, is it possible for someone to be both?

Actually, there has been a movement for reconciliation and the development of a coalition type atmosphere that has been steadily growing since the attacks of 9-11.

... or at least here in my area.

	08-02-2005 08:46									#174
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I'm actually with BK on this. Destroy America!

The English word destroy doesn't carry the same meaning Marx has with the word aufhebung (sp?), which means to negate be transcendence. We mean to destroy America in the same way that becoming an adult destroys the child, in other words to become something new and better while still being the same.

	08-02-2005 08:52									#175
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No it's not. Capitalism isn't a child. It's full grown. If it were a child we would have destroyed it long ago.

	08-02-2005 09:36									#176
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara James Watt, Secretary of the Interior!!! told Congress that when the last tree is felled, Christ will return to the world.

Funny thing is, it's possible he didn't actually say that.

The quote I've found from the committee hearing is:

"Absolutely. That is the delicate balance the Secretary of the Interior must have, to be steward for the natural resources for this generation as well as future generations.

I do not know how many future generations we can count on before the Lord returns, whatever it is we have to manage with a skill to leave the resources needed for future generations."

...which seems to be the exact opposite of what's been taken as an article of faith by some here. Though I'm sure the quote above will bring giggles and snorts of disdain from those who dislike Christians so feel free to do so if you wish.

At the moment, the source for the quote I have is second-hand from here:
Link

...mainly because I can't find a blasted location for 24 year old transcripts in any of the .gov sites so far.

(And no, there was nothing on it at Snopes. For or against. Yes, I am leaving a message to see if they know anything or know a good place to look. Same with the blogger.)

	08-02-2005 12:25									#177
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quote: quote: Originally posted by CyberShy IQ is to measure intelligence EQ is to measure emtional intelligence. I score heigh on both scales and still I believe that Jesus might very wel return within the next 50 years.

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger IQ is quite bogus, and EQ is at least 10 times worse.

That's what I would say as well if I would score low on both tests

	08-02-2005 13:01									#178
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quote: quote: Originally posted by CyberShy - The 7th king (Rev 17) has come and gone (Hitler)

quote: Originally posted by Wycoff I have a few questions regarding your post, but I'll start with these: What are the criteria when deciding who will be the kings? Why is Hitler the 7th King? Hitler was a murderous dictator, but so was Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Sadaam, and many others. Why is Hitler significant enough to be the "7th King?" Who were the other 6 kings?

Ah, finally a reply that makes sence
First, of course we can never be sure if hitler (or the 3rd reich) is the 7th king. Neither can we be sure if 6th king is the roman empire (Nero).

But it's quiet commonly accepted that the kings are like:
1st king: Egypt
2nd king: Assur
3rd king: Babylon
4th king: Medo-Persia
5th king: Greek empire
6th king: roman empire

all kings have one big role in the history of Israel and God's plan witht his world.

egypt held the jews as slaves for decenia, untill Moses lead them from Egypt. They received the law and the 10 commandments on their journey back.

Assur captured Israel (10 clans [what are they called in english?] and made them dissapear

Babylon captured Juda and lead the people away from their land

Medo-Perzie conquered babylon, and ended the exile of the jews by sending them back to israel

greek have conquered israel for decenia, they paved the road for the gospel. The new testament is written is greek

romans have conquered israel, killed many of them, burned Jerusalem down 2 times and spread the jews into the diaspora
------------------

Eventhough the jews have been persecuted through all the ages (most particulary unfortunately by the 'christians' in europe) none of these surpressors were like egypt / assur / babylon / etc. Neither was their role in history as important as with the earlier listed kings.

Compare that to Hitler-Germany. Never were the jews persecuted like that before! Never were that many jews killed. And, strange, as a result of the 2nd worldwar, the world was eager to give the jews their land (back).
No 1948 without 1939-1945......

I think everybody, christian / atheist / agnost / muslim must admit that 1948 has been a very special point in time for those who believe the biblical prophecies.

For that reason I think the 7th king might very well be Hitler (hitler germany / 3rd reich)
In fact, if he's not the 7th king, who else will be?

Revelations 17:

quote: And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

5 are fallen (egypt, assur, babylon, medo-persia, greek)
1 is (roman)
1 is yet to come, andw hen he cometh he must continue a SHORT SPACE. (1939-1945 is short compared to all the other 'kings' I listed) (king may be read as kingdom)

quote: And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

The 8th king is the beast. (which comes forth from the 7)
Thus, the 8th king / the empire of the beast, is according to revelations, a re-establishment of one of the earlier 6 kingdoms.

It says about the beast that it was, and is not.
The roman empire (Nero / Domitianus) are commonly seen among christians as the first manifestation of the beast. (the beast who was.... Nero..?)
A 2nd manifestation of the beast must be a kingdom that's very alike to the roman empire.

Most close to it might be a future version of the EU.
(might be, I cannot be sure, I'm not against the EU, I just try to read the prophecy)

It's quiet amazing how since 1945 things appear to fall into their place. Israel reunited. All other biblical nations re-appear (Egypt, Assur, babylon, Philistines) of course with new names and other appearances, but all those nations are back there. Hating Israel.

But not only the nations in the ME, the EU (roman empire) has been re-established as well.

IMHO the 2nd WW was a very special moment for the fullfilling of biblical prophecies.
I may be wrong, I may be very wrong. But I do keep an eye on the newspapers.

prophecies:

about Israel being reformed
Eze 37

quote: And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all

Math 24

quote: Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer [is] nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, [even] at the doors.

(know that the fig-tree is a parable for Israel through the entire bible.

Other prophecies that tell us the end-of-time is near:

Zec 12:3

quote: And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces

2 thim 3 (quiet harsh)

quote: This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Dan 12

quote: But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, [even] to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Amos 9

quote: And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit [them]; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them. And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.

2 Th 3

quote: Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first

Well, reading the posts on poly, I think that the falling away (from christianity) has surely come and started.
Another sign that the end is near.

Matthew 24:

quote: And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

They expect that in 2020 the gospel will be preached all over the world. There are some 'white spots' right now where the gospel is not being preached yet.
Keep an eye on it.

There are many many more prophecies, though these ones are most clear imho.

Of course, one can easily renounce these prophecies, and call those who believe them retarted. It's always easy to call someone who has another opintion retarted. Go ahead, and think so.
But I think one who's really wise should read into these things, and conciders them, instead of going with the flow and trusting your own wisdom, that comes forth from common wisdom in these days.

Be born in 1500, become a catholic
Be born in 2000, become an atheist.
Now be really wise, and don't go with the flow.

The earth is round, columbus said. Most people might have said about him that he's a retarted man.

	08-02-2005 13:09									#179
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quote: Actually, there has been a movement for reconciliation and the development of a coalition type atmosphere that has been steadily growing since the attacks of 9-11. ... or at least here in my area.

I agree. There has been plenty of movement towards reconciliation here too, and I guess I've been a part of that.

Heck, a rosary group singing a cappella, is one fruit of that collaboration.

	08-02-2005 13:11									#180
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quote: But I think one who's really wise should read into these things, and conciders them, instead of going with the flow and trusting your own wisdom, that comes forth from common wisdom in these days. Be born in 1500, become a catholic Be born in 2000, become an atheist. Now be really wise, and don't go with the flow.

Yes, but you can't forget that Paul talks about the faith that comes through obedience, which would tend to constrain a contrary spirit.