07-02-2005 21:07									#121
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO So many interesting posts... 1st) Real Christians . . .

. . . are anyone who call themselves Christians. You people are more sectarian than communists. At least I don't pretend that Maoists and Stalinists aren't "real" communists. I may think they're wrong about many things and think they give the rest of us a bad name, but I accept their claim. The same goes for Christians.

PLATO, the arrorgance of some Christians astounds me. Somehow, there seems to be this assumption that if a person isn't a Chsitian, they never were. There is such a thing as apostasy, i.e., leaving the faith. Most atheists do not start out atheists, but started out Christians and left the faith. I'm rather rare in that I started out an atheist, became a Christian, then became an atheist again.

	07-02-2005 21:14									#122
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quote: Originally posted by CyberShy Most people only care about themselves.

I would suggest that even for most of the people you know, this statement is untrue. One only needs to look at the world wide reaction to the Christmas tsunamis to see how untrue this statement is.

	07-02-2005 21:16									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Heresson I don't think condemnation of homosexual practices is essential in Christianity. Bah, look at episcopal church...

Especially since the part of the New Testment supposedly banning it comes from the rather suspect Timothy sections, which many, if not most, scholars agree were not written by Paul.

BTW, this is also the part of the New Testament which says it's okay to have slaves. We don't agree with that anymore, now, do we.

edit: spelling fix

	07-02-2005 21:23									#124
	Re: Re: 44% of USians think Christ Will Be Back in 50 years Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by The diplomat It is high likely that Christ will be back in the next 50 years. I believe Christ will return in the next 20 years.

Good for you. And if he is not back, what does that say about your beliefs?

I find Monotheists so conceited and megalomaniacall- I mean, to have the gaul to think that if a conscious creator to the universe exists it gives a damn about your actions or morals- or even more hubristic, that you are in his image!? The creator makes an entire Universe, and he is wasting his time on the actions of insignificant collections of cells inhabiting the few top miles of a planet orbiting an average star in the edge of an average galaxy?

Man, how vain is that?

	07-02-2005 21:46									#125
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we are sentient

and He is a loving God

Jon Miller

	07-02-2005 21:47									#126
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He has the capicity and does love everything

from the tiny sparrow, to some other really cool being on some other planet

Jon miller

	07-02-2005 21:48									#127
	Re: Re: Re: 44% of USians think Christ Will Be Back in 50 years Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by GePap Good for you. And if he is not back, what does that say about your beliefs?

What do you think it says about his beleifs?

Jon Miller

	07-02-2005 21:54									#128
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Especially since the part of the New Testment supposedly banning it comes from the rather suspect Timothy sections, which many, if not most, scholars agree were not written by Paul. BTW, this is also the part of the New Testament which says it's okay to have slaves. We don't agree with that naymore, now, do we.

Considering it is also proscribed in the OT I think it likely that it is the result of sin being in this earth. However, everyone has sin and God leads in different ways so I think that someones homosexuality is between them and God. Also, definitely we should allow people to make that decision, we should minimize the number of decisions we legislate.

Jon Miller

	07-02-2005 21:55									#129
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quote: Originally posted by CyberShy You're most obviously new to this planet! Most people only care about themselves.

Your cynicism, while touching, is unfounded.

	07-02-2005 21:56									#130
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"Rabbi Yochanan ben Zakkai used to say: "If there is a plant in your hand when they say to you: 'Behold, the Moshiach!'-- go and plant the seedling, and afterward go out to greet him.""


IE dont STOP doing things to make the world better on the assumption that the messiah is imminent.

NOTE WELL - this famous saying is found on websites belonging to Chabad, the branch of Judaism that most aggressively suggests that the Messiah is imminent. Even THEY insist on continued prudence.

	07-02-2005 21:57									#131
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The only real purpose of commenting on this thread is to point out how stupid it is to use USians. I see it and I know the people using it think that they are clever somehow but they really aren't. Sorry che but that's all that is really worth mentioning in this thread. It's just another thread for everyone to attack and make fun of other people. I'd expect more from you but this is poly after all and that's what most of the people are on here for. To attack people they claim as less than them so that their ****ed up real life doesn't seem as bad.

	07-02-2005 21:58									#132
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quote: Originally posted by CyberShy Maarten Luther, the first reformer, said: "If I knew Christ was coming today, I would plant an appletree today." in other words, the christian doctrine is: Expect Christ to come today, life like Christ could wait another 2000 years.

MLK Jr. was a prophet? That's a new one.

	07-02-2005 22:00									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller Considering it is also proscribed in the OT.

So is eating shrimp or cheeseburgers. The rules changed with the NT, so the fact that something was proscribed in the OT isn't necessarily a valid reason for continuing to proscribe it.

	07-02-2005 22:01									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious MLK Jr. was a prophet?

You know Martin Luther King was named after Martin Luther, the founder of Protestantism, right?

	07-02-2005 22:02									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber The only real purpose of commenting on this thread is to point out how stupid it is to use USians. I see it and I know the people using it think that they are clever somehow but they really aren't. Sorry che but that's all that is really worth mentioning in this thread. It's just another thread for everyone to attack and make fun of other people. I'd expect more from you but this is poly after all and that's what most of the people are on here for. To attack people they claim as less than them so that their ****ed up real life doesn't seem as bad.

I think the oppurtunity to quote R. Yochanan Ben Zakkai is always a good excuse for commenting on a thread

R. Yochanan Ben Zakkai
R. Jose the Gallilean
R. Yehuda haNasi

religious debates that assume christianity and humanism/athiesm are the only options

Learning to accept ones status as a minority

Ted Striker

	07-02-2005 22:03									#136
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber The only real purpose of commenting on this thread is to point out how stupid it is to use USians. I see it and I know the people using it think that they are clever somehow but they really aren't.

If you'd bother to read the thread, you'd have come across the post where I mentioned I did it to shorten the thread title.

Nor is this thread about pointing and laughing at Christians, but at understanding the policiy implications of certain beliefs, and how they are dangerous to the rest of us.

	07-02-2005 22:03									#137
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara So is eating shrimp or cheeseburgers. The rules changed with the NT, so the fact that something was proscribed in the OT isn't necessarily a valid reason for continuing to proscribe it.

<-cough->

	07-02-2005 22:04									#138
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You're Jewish, the NT doesn't apply to you.

	07-02-2005 22:09									#139
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara You're Jewish, the NT doesn't apply to you.

Then you should have said the rules changed for CHRISTIANS. I mean its kind of odd thinking that the fact that the rules still apply to Jews is just a minor thing, when you consider, like, who the history of the "old" testament. Odd to see an atheist(I presume) privileging the Christian view of the "old" testament.
One might as well say that Jesus was a just a prophet leading to Muhammed.

	07-02-2005 22:11									#140
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark religious debates that assume christianity and humanism/athiesm are the only options

People who equate atheism and humanism

	07-02-2005 22:11									#141
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara You know Martin Luther King was named after Martin Luther, the founder of Protestantism, right?

Yeah. I do. How did I say something stupid?

edit: nevermind

	07-02-2005 22:13									#142
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Then you should have said the rules changed for CHRISTIANS.

This is a thread about the beliefs of certain Christians. And in the context of the specific comment, it was pointing out that as far as the NT goes, the NT supercedes the OT. In other words, you can't point to Leviticus and Deuteronomy to point out that Timothy is correct (or written by Paul, for that matter).

	07-02-2005 22:13									#143
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara If you'd bother to read the thread, you'd have come across the post where I mentioned I did it to shorten the thread title. Nor is this thread about pointing and laughing at Christians, but at understanding the policiy implications of certain beliefs, and how they are dangerous to the rest of us.

so guev, did the survey also ask those people if they save money? If theyre taking out a second mortgage on their house? How this varies from everyone else of comparable demos?

AFAIK these folks are taking the same approach as R. Yochanan ben Zakkai, and I see no evidence otherwise.

	07-02-2005 22:15									#144
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist People who equate atheism and humanism

People who should said atheism/and or humanism/ and or agnosticism, etc.

Look, if id just said atheism id have gotten all kindsa crap for that.

	07-02-2005 22:19									#145
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark so guev, did the survey also ask those people if they save money?

Not having seen the original survey, I can't say.

quote: AFAIK these folks are taking the same approach as R. Yochanan ben Zakkai, and I see no evidence otherwise.

And yet, so many people act as if it is the case that we don't need to plan for the long term future because the return of Christ is iminent. It helps explain a puzzling feature of the right wing, which is why they are so adamantly opposed to conservation or environmental protection or building for the future anything besides wealth (there's those talents PLATO mentioned).

	07-02-2005 22:19									#146
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara This is a thread about the beliefs of certain Christians.

I thought it was about the decline of the US due to beliefs about the 2nd coming of christ. If you can get from that to cheeseburgers, i think youve left yourself open.

In any case, the OT says nothing about cheeseburgers, say. The application of it to something new requires a tradition of legal application, which the Christians havent maintained on dietary law. The Jewish tradition was implicit in your statement.

	07-02-2005 22:24									#147
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark so guev, did the survey also ask those people if they save money? Not having seen the original survey, I can't say. quote: AFAIK these folks are taking the same approach as R. Yochanan ben Zakkai, and I see no evidence otherwise. And yet, so many people act as if it is the case that we don't need to plan for the long term future because the return of Christ is iminent. It helps explain a puzzling feature of the right wing, which is why they are so adamantly opposed to conservation or environmental protection or building for the future anything besides wealth (there's those talents PLATO mentioned).

Its easily explained on other grounds, from financing by industrial interests, to hostility to "Pagan" fringes of the enviro movement, to general cultural conservativism.
It also fails to explain the hostility to the enviro movement of A. Christians who do NOT think the 2nd coming is imminent and B. secular conservatives.

Really, this is silly.

	07-02-2005 22:26									#148
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark In any case, the OT says nothing about cheeseburgers.

No milk (cheese) and meat together, as you well know. As the comment pointed out, Christians picked and chose what from the OT they wanted to keep when creating their new religion. The fact they decided to toss dietary restrictions but keep a prohibition on homosexuality points to a certain arbitrariness on their part.

This is also a side discussion on whether or not a belief in the imminent end of the world leads to certain behaviors on the part of certain groups of Chrisitans. It's tangential to the main thread.

	07-02-2005 22:30									#149
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark A. Christians who do NOT think the 2nd coming is imminent and B. secular conservatives.

They have their own, different reasons. Wanting one overarching explanation for all people isn't fair. We're talking about a particular, and politically powerful, segment of the U.S. electorate.

	07-02-2005 22:38									#150
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara . It's tangential to the main thread.

Precisely.