09-02-2005 01:22									#61
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Now there's a target for donations. It's true that most troops might be missing something. But they are not that bad off comparing to the rest. Then again, it's not competiton of who's the most pragmatic. But as far as Iraq goes, there are lots of people who are in bigger needs and future investments, like kids and education... kids and healthcare, **** like that... that matters.

	09-02-2005 01:24									#62
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Not if all the pinko commies kill all the kids!

	09-02-2005 01:24									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Now there's a target for donations. It's true that most troops might be missing something. But they are not that bad off comparing to the rest. Then again, it's not competiton of who's the most pragmatic. But as far as Iraq goes, there are lots of people who are in bigger needs and future investments, like kids and education... kids and healthcare, **** like that... that matters.

not that bad off? getting shot at every day? IEDs? Try that on for size, supercitizen.

"Group Sends Care Packages, Support to Deployed Troops
By Donna Miles
American Forces Press Service

WASHINGTON, July 6, 2004 -- It all started when Army Spc. Robert Collins called his mother from Afghanistan to thank her for his care package and ask that she send more for some of his buddies who weren't getting goodies from home.

Gladys Walker prepares to make a run to the post office to ship care packages to the troops through the Have a Heart/Adopt a Soldier organization.

Horrified that a deployed U.S. service member might feel forgotten and unappreciated by the American public, Gladys Walker started what has snowballed into the Have a Heart/Adopt a Soldier organization.

First, Walker started assembling a few extra care packages. Then she and her husband began dipping into their retirement savings to fund their increasingly frequent shopping ventures for the troops. Soon letters from military chaplains started pouring in, with lists of service members in their units who were getting nothing from home: no letters, no goodie boxes, no reminder of America's gratitude for their service.

Walker catapulted into fifth gear, devoting 20 hours a day to fundraising, recruiting sponsors and volunteers, purchasing goodies ranging from baby wipes to chewing gum, and wrapping and shipping packages for troops in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere in Southwest Asia. Her latest venture, custom- designed bumper stickers, is expected to raise more money to help fund the enterprise, along with current sales of car magnets, T-shirts and other items and fundraisers ranging from bake sales to walkathons.

"The response has been overwhelming," she said. From around the country, checks, items for care packages and letters for the troops continue to roll in to Walker's Malone, N.Y., home.

On a given week, Have a Heart/Adopt a Soldier ships about 200 care packages to deployed troops. Along with comfort items like bug spray and treats like beef jerky, she tucks inside as many boxes as possible what she considers the most important item of all: letters of encouragement. "What our troops need the most is to know that the American people haven't forgotten about them and support them," she said.

Yet the need continues. Walker said she has a list of 100 deployed troops in need of sponsors.

"I wish you could see the faces of the soldiers who receive these packages," a chaplain wrote Walker. "It truly makes their day."

Just as the donations and requests for care packages roll in, so, too, do the thank-you notes, she said. Most service members who write tell Walker they're proud of what they're doing. Some lean on her shoulder, admitting that they're sometimes scared, particularly when they hear mortar fire.

But all tell Walker how much it means to them to know that the American public is behind them.

"It has to be terribly hard, being in a foreign land, in the heat, with bullets flying past you," she said. "It's not the individual items we're sending that mean the most. It's what they communicate: that the American people believe in you and thank you for your service," she said.

For more information about Have a Heart/Adopt a Soldier, visit the organization's Web site, e-mail soldier2@localnet.com or call (518) 481-5126. "

	09-02-2005 01:26									#64
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lotm, can you read? We were talking about equipment. They are not that bad off. Yeah, there are folks missing stuff, but they are relatively well off. IEDs? Ambushes? Getting shot at? ****, it's war, hey at least I'm not the one blowing this over the board here.

	09-02-2005 01:28									#65
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Theyre risking their lives to stop the jihadis who are attacking Iraqis and Iraqi democracy - i see nothing wrong with adopting them. That it pisses off certain folks such as we see here, is an added bonus.

First, "oh, goody, people don;t like it" is about as childish and stupid a reason to support anything as any that exists. Anyone so immature as to support something for this reason deserves a good drilling from some Jesuits.

Second, these guys work for the Fed government- if I want them to get more support, I lobby the congress to increase pay to the troops instead of more pork programs for weapon developers. These guys are LOW on the list of people needing any charity.

That Iraqi literacy campaign is on the other hand a worthy cause.

Again, a childish move by virtual warriors and its sad some people here view it as anything more. Good job, jesuits! People going to Jesuit school should have more intellectual maturity than some horny violent 12 year old.

	09-02-2005 01:34									#66
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quote: Originally posted by GePap quote: First, "oh, goody, people don;t like it" is about as childish and stupid a reason to support anything as any that exists. Anyone so immature as to support something for this reason deserves a good drilling from some Jesuits. can you read the word "bonus"? quote: Second, these guys work for the Fed government- if I want them to get more support, I lobby the congress to increase pay to the troops instead of more pork programs for weapon developers. These guys are LOW on the list of people needing any charity.

Some of us think they deserve their money, and more, for the risks they take and the work, they do. And its great to lobby the govt, but in this country we do things voluntarily and dont wait for govt actions. (geez, can you remember when "it will be a great day when the air force needs to hold a bake sale for bombers" was a LIBERAL slogan?) Third, it less about the actual material stuff that gets sent, then about letting the troops know we care, we are with you.

Too bad some folks dont get it, or have let their politics get in the way of the solidarity most Americans feel for our brothers and sisters in harms way.

	09-02-2005 01:37									#67
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Again, a childish move by virtual warriors and its sad some people here view it as anything more. Good job, jesuits! People going to Jesuit school should have more intellectual maturity than some horny violent 12 year old.

So, supposing they had been selling support the troops bracelets, that help fund the USO? Would the Jesuits have objected? Would you?

	09-02-2005 01:41									#68
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There's a difference between 'support our gallant troops' and '1 Shot 1 Kill No Remorse I Decide'.

	09-02-2005 01:45									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman There's a difference between 'support our gallant troops' and '1 Shot 1 Kill No Remorse I Decide'.

the rationale behind the slogan is explained above. Did the Jesuits even examine it, discuss it, try to understand it? Is multiple shots per kill morally preferable? Should a soldier who acts follows the rules of war show remorse? Are Catholic snipers required to do penitence? Id think the heir of Ignatius Loyala might want to think about these. What exactly is it that requires limited student freedom in this instance?

	09-02-2005 01:46									#70
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Exactly. I was saying what Sandman is saying. THat's just one stupid slogan.. 1 shot 1 kill.. that's military slogan. That's not civilian support slogan.

	09-02-2005 01:51									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Exactly. I was saying what Sandman is saying. THat's just one stupid slogan.. 1 shot 1 kill.. that's military slogan. That's not civilian support slogan.

The US Marine Corps slogan is Semper Fidelis, ever loyal. A group supporting the USMC might naturally include that. Other groups and specialties have their own slogans. This group of snipers has adopted this one, on seriously argued grounds. It brings home what youre really supporting - you cant hide behind vaguenesss - which, when you think about it, is very connected to being a sniper. Remember when everyone was angry at how the US in Kosovo killed impersonally from 50,000 feet - how terrible that was, how profoundly immoral, etc. A sniper more than anyone else in the military kills PERSONALLY - they see EXACTLY who theyre trying to kill. No avoiding reality there. Intense personal responsiblity. What could be of greater interest to the Jesuits?

	09-02-2005 01:52									#72
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compare that slogan to "Peace is our profession" the slogan of the Strategic Air Command - ie the nuclear bomber and missile boys. Now THATS, arguably, Orwellian. The sniper slogan is the reverse of Orwellian.

	09-02-2005 01:55									#73
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Hey, I'm not arguing the slogan for them snipers. It's a good slogan for them.

But make bracelets like that in jesuit school, or ANY school for that matter outside of military school. It's bragging that's what it is. You might feel some patriotism in it, but if the makers don't realize it's controversial to put that slogan in it, then they should really get a clue. If they want to piss off a lot of people, then sure. But it's not really smart because they could do this a LOT smarter, not pissing off people.

Better would be just simply 'support the troops' or 'support the lonely snipers', anything except that one. You must see what I mean. You might not agree with it, but you know what I mean. So why go piss off people, if you want to be a patriot and raise money? No reason to be an ******* when they could just avoid it.

It's got nothing to do that the snipers say that and are proud of that, it's all good. But do you think semper fi and kill puke **** destroy has difference or are they so same?

Anyway, this is trivial and not a subject of debate from me anymore. You either see it or you don't. You don't have to agree with me.

	09-02-2005 02:01									#74
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark compare that slogan to "Peace is our profession" the slogan of the Strategic Air Command - ie the nuclear bomber and missile boys. Now THATS, arguably, Orwellian. The sniper slogan is the reverse of Orwellian.

Um, wouldn't one interpret that more as "we've got weapons so nasty no one would dare attack, so we're maintaining peace"? As opposed to the snipers' "I'm an efficient killing machine that answers to no one"?

	09-02-2005 02:05									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki Um, wouldn't one interpret that more as "we've got weapons so nasty no one would dare attack, so we're maintaining peace"? As opposed to the snipers' "I'm an efficient killing machine that answers to no one"?

I decide doesnt mean answers to know one, it means I need to make the decision on my own (thus I am in a more profoundly more serious moral position than 90% of the military who are cogs in a larger operation) and I MUST make the decision on my own - hell the snipers post as the ultimate existential situation - he takes RESPONSIBILITY.

	09-02-2005 02:08									#76
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but making it clear, I have no problems with snipers. I think they are very needed and men of steel. My problem is that some kids are using their slogan that is controversial outside military compounds... we all know soldiers have names that would shock people I think.. but it's just a ... it's nothing to be upset about. But they could have chosen any slogan they wanted, and they chose exactly that one. If I was sniper, I would be offneded some more-important-than-stiff-crap students raped my slogan. But that's just me .

	09-02-2005 03:38									#77
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If you adopt a sniper are you supposed to clean him up and see to it that he stays clean? In exchange does the sponsor get to post his name tag on the sniper? What happens if a chapter of the KKK or the American Nazis Party adopt a sniper?

	09-02-2005 03:51									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Max Webster Funny you never hear about Scandinavian terrorists. Wonder why that is? Do they even exist? Now Scandinavia you should get out there in the world and start pissing people off. All the while making your rich richer and then you can have your own little crusade.

Some Swedish neo-nazis were arrested and accused of terrorism recently. They were planning to damage the power grid and government buildings, stuff like that.



On the topic, I say if the richest country in the world can't afford to equip their soldiers, they have to low taxes

	09-02-2005 03:57									#79
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Anyway, why ADOPT a sniper, when you could RENT a sniper

	09-02-2005 03:57									#80
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The soldiers are just fine. These fund raisers are a way for civilians to send extras.

	09-02-2005 05:47									#81
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LOTM: The slogan is disasteful. You know why? Because its about killing people. Killing people is distasteful.

	09-02-2005 06:45									#82
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark I decide doesnt mean answers to know one, it means I need to make the decision on my own (thus I am in a more profoundly more serious moral position than 90% of the military who are cogs in a larger operation) and I MUST make the decision on my own - hell the snipers post as the ultimate existential situation - he takes RESPONSIBILITY.

What are you talking about? A sniper is nothing more then a specialist soldier-he has no greater moral authority than any other soldier- he simply has a different mission. And snipers take no more responsiblity than any other soldiers either- they are carrying out a mission, like any other soldier, and have a duty to perfrom their appointed task. A sniper does not decide whether he kills people or not, simply when he does, and what's the best way to do so-the people must die was a decision made by others. After all, are you saying the DC area sniper is conversely a more heinious killer because he had this supposed greater moral choice?

The slogan says nothing of support for the troops or anything else- it purely equates more efficient killing to personal freedom. Not a message I care for, and certainly not one that Jesuits would ever countenance.

	09-02-2005 08:02									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin The soldiers are just fine. These fund raisers are a way for civilians to send extras.

Extra what? Bullets? Do sponsors get to have a slogan of their choice embossed on the bullets?

Hey! Let's hear some suggestions for slogans to be engraved on the sponsored bulllets:

	09-02-2005 08:44									#84
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As said earlier I think they purchase various comfort items available in the states which are hard to come by in Iraq like English language reading material, candy, extra personal hygene stuff, etc...

	09-02-2005 09:48									#85
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GYYYAAAAHHHHH!!!

Oh wait, I thought you said they bought them extra feminine hygene products. My bad.

But why adopt snipers in particular? Why not adopt a grunt and just take what you get? It seems discriminatory.

	09-02-2005 10:09									#86
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH I would have thought even the most limp-wristed liberal could understand it. One supports our troops and one supports our enemy.

Liberal? I'm a socialist. And I'm hardly a pacifist.

Again, this is simply proving that you have no idea of how most Jesuits think.

Jesuits are teachers and missionaries.

They grudgingly accept the idea of a justified war. They are against capital punishment. They are against abortion. They are against euthanasia. They believe wholeheartedly in the concept of human life as a seamless garment, sacred from conception to death, the breaking of which is a sin before God. They certainly do not encourage the glorification of the killing of other human beings.

You getting your panties in a bunch because they stopped a bunch of upper-class twits from selling bracelets doing just that on a campus that they own and operate is ridiculous.

Do I think that the little twerps (most of whom would likely wilt under fire and yet who revel in the abstract glory of warfare) should have the right to go ahead with their plan? Sure. You certainly won't see me getting too pissed off at the Jesuits for stopping them though. Jesuits are some of the most morally consistent men I have ever had the pleasure of meeting and being taught by. They have a tradition of raising "men for others", and are themselves strongly devoted to charity, social justice and the defense of the weak.

The Jesuits at that school might believe that the two major wars the US is involved in right now are justified (I'd be very surprised if they thought Iraq was, but let's stipulate it anyway). They might believe that the detention of prisoners at Guantanamo bay without access to counsel is justified both morally and legally (another non-trivial assumption). Even given this they would never approve of allowing any activity on their campus they saw as demeaning the sanctity of human life.

	09-02-2005 17:04									#87
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Adopt a Jesuit! One God, One Church, One Fuhr...er Pope.

	14-02-2005 20:07									#88
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quote: Originally posted by GePap What are you talking about? A sniper is nothing more then a specialist soldier-he has no greater moral authority than any other soldier- he simply has a different mission. And snipers take no more responsiblity than any other soldiers either- they are carrying out a mission, like any other soldier, and have a duty to perfrom their appointed task. A sniper does not decide whether he kills people or not, simply when he does, and what's the best way to do so-the people must die was a decision made by others. After all, are you saying the DC area sniper is conversely a more heinious killer because he had this supposed greater moral choice? The slogan says nothing of support for the troops or anything else- it purely equates more efficient killing to personal freedom. Not a message I care for, and certainly not one that Jesuits would ever countenance.

There is a difference between what snipers and what regular soldiers do.

Many soldiers never know for sure if they've killed someone. They may fire at enemy soldiers but in the confusion of battle a great many dont know for sure whether they've actually killed someone. Rather like killing with a knife, snipers almost always know they've killed someone.

In addition, regular soldiers dont decide whom to kill. They may decide whether or not to fire at all while attacking a defended position (for example) but make no decision as to whether they will participate in the attack. Aside from assasinations, snipers have no requirement to fire at anything. They decide whether its safe to engage a target and thus choose who will die (given the high probability of a kill).

Of course, regular and special force soldiers (including snipers) are under the army umbrella of legitamacy but from a psychological perspective they are quite different.

	14-02-2005 22:22									#89
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Well, couple of things:

*From a PR perspective at least, that's a really stupid slogan. People get those wristbands for the sake of advertising their own generosity, which is revolting but that's how it works. A message of "killing efficiently and not feeling sorry for it," violates one of the basic rules of a slogan, that it sound self-evidently correct and beautiful the very first time you hear it. Slogans typically aren't supposed to involve complex or ambiguous morals.

*Logistical support troops like supply clerks and translators aren't as equipment-intensive as snipers, are they? They're also relatively removed from danger.

*While the students may very well be motivated by puerile bloodlust fed by excessive Halo 2 PVP matches, the organization itself does not sound like it glorifies any kind of assassin mentality, any more than "Support a Marine" would necessarily involve advocating shooting everything that moves until it stops moving, or "Support an Army Ranger" would glorify paradropping and blowing up bridges. They're just specialists with hard jobs. That might need to be made more clear though.

	14-02-2005 22:57									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin If your shooting a jehadist then your making the whole world better. It's much like shooting a Nazi.

I've never much liked AFA's attacks on neo-Nazis. If they they started actually killing people, well, hopefully the police would deal harshly with them.