09-02-2005 22:15									#31
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quote: The problem isn't with her lacking any balls, it's with her not understanding her market, being a philosopher and all.

Oh whatever... as if a peon like you could run a large company. If I had a company to run, I'd still pick her over you.

But if it was money, I'd pick George Soros or Carl Icahn over her. Both took philosophy.

MSNBC reports that the reason she got fired is basically the Compaq deal, which she pushed through by a whisker.

	09-02-2005 22:17									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Which is why Oracle buying PeopleSoft is going to hurt them, too. IBM must love its current competitors...

I can tell you that SAP LOVES this deal.

	09-02-2005 23:14									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Oh whatever... as if a peon like you could run a large company. If I had a company to run, I'd still pick her over you.

I'm sure once I get to her age, with her collective experience, I could make a much more effective CEO.

I'm sure even now I could do a better job. I would never, ever, consider a merger with Compaq for one.

It's sad that someone of my age and stature has a better grip on the market and what it wants than someone like her who's worked in it for decades.

	09-02-2005 23:19									#34
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Sony is a weak company. A vast destroyer of value. Toshiba ain't so hot, either.

Both of the companies main problem has been trying to profit in a hardware industry were prices keep falling but they still keep large parts of their manufacturing in a high cost country (Japan) instead of moving just about everything to a country where they can compete. Both companies have suffered from bad management who isn't hungry to chase new niches but their model is fine.

Take Samsung, nearly the same model but the management is always on the watch for new niches and they are always cutting costs. The problem is not the model it is the management. You can talk about how profits are flat and the stock isn't going any where but the truth is these are large stable companies with strong brands that just need management to do some unJapanese things.

	09-02-2005 23:29									#35
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Philosophers running high tech companies...only in America

	10-02-2005 00:49									#36
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We had this discussion before. For the last time: she wasn't a philosopher. She has a degree in philosophy, that's all. She's a business woman first and foremost. She had a business training, she probably has lots of experience, a nice thick cv, and she was probably good at what she was doing. That's why HP gave her the job, not because she has a degree in philosophy. And I'm not saying philosophers can run big companies either.

	10-02-2005 00:51									#37
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The reason I'm branding her a philosopher was because several nameless people on these forums pointed to her as a someone when I asked for "useful modern philosophers". It's either another example of "philosophers" taking credit for people who actually aren't philosophers, or a spectacular example of why a philosopher is inept to run a high-tech business. It's win-win for me.

	10-02-2005 00:53									#38
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http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...threadid=126793

	10-02-2005 00:57									#39
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Foreshadowing at its best.

	10-02-2005 01:10									#40
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quote: Women running things

Q: "Dude, are you being sarcastic?"
A: "I don't even know anymore."

If you make the same damn joke every single time, you'll **** over your brain in ways you don't intend.

	10-02-2005 01:14									#41
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quote: a spectacular example of why a philosopher is inept to run a high-tech business. It's win-win for me.

Like I said, she's not a philosopher: she's an experienced business woman. So you can't say it's a spectacular example of why a philosopher is inept to run a high-tech business. Even she was one, who said trained philosophers should be able to run companies? After all, we're not trained to do so. If I want to run a company, I go to business school.

	10-02-2005 01:26									#42
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quote: Originally posted by nostromo Like I said, she's not a philosopher: she's an experienced business woman. So you can't say it's a spectacular example of why a philosopher is inept to run a high-tech business. Even she was one, who said trained philosophers should be able to run companies? After all, we're not trained to do so. If I want to run a company, I go to business school.

Meh, some of the best CEOs in history never went to business school.

Business school is not something I would ever be interested in. I don't think leaders should be trained on how to run a business, they should be able to think outside of the box.

	10-02-2005 01:33									#43
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Business training is good, still, I'd expect some kind of background in the field that the company's products are in. Otherwise, the company lacks long term vision.

	10-02-2005 01:38									#44
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Smiley, I believe you're right. The best bosses not only know the principles of running a business but they also have detailed, in depth knowledge of the business, their costumers, and their competitors. I'd like to get an MBA in a year or two but I acknowledge B-Schools have over sold themselves. They keep trying to sell the stupid idea that a good manager is the key and he can be moved to any business anf still be a success. That's a lie; the best business leaders know their clients inside and out and they know their field inside and out. That's how they tell a good idea from a bad idea plus gives them an idea of what's possible and what the market will do.

Engineering companies should be headed by people who know engineering, banking by people who know finance, baking by a baker, etc...

	10-02-2005 02:22									#45
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quote: The reason I'm branding her a philosopher was because several nameless people on these forums pointed to her as a someone when I asked for "useful modern philosophers". It's either another example of "philosophers" taking credit for people who actually aren't philosophers, or a spectacular example of why a philosopher is inept to run a high-tech business. It's win-win for me.

And one example doesn't prove a thing. IIRC you claimed that philosophy was useless unless you wanted to teach it. That is patently not the case. Many people who do it find it excellent preparation for all sorts of things.

You might as well say that one example of a CS major or engineer being fired from a major company is testament to the uselessness of that degree.

But as usual, you are just displaying that you are ignorant.

	10-02-2005 02:26									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon And one example doesn't prove a thing. IIRC you claimed that philosophy was useless unless you wanted to teach it. That is patently not the case.

You're right, it's not. According to the list of philosophers provided, it's also useful in becoming an actor, a musician, an executive of failing businesses, and an author.

quote: You might as well say that one example of a CS major or engineer being fired from a major company is testament to the uselessness of that degree. But as usual, you are just displaying that you are ignorant.

I'm only ignorant because I've yet to be shown a philosopher who can do anything reliably outside of their field.

Hell, your own examples of the Canadian Government and the Catholic Church should be examples for my point of view, and not yours.

If I trumpeted a certain engineer was the sole example of them being useful in that field as a business leader, and then they get fired for being incompetent, it is saying something...

	10-02-2005 02:31									#47
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quote: I'm only ignorant because I've yet to be shown a philosopher who can do anything reliably outside of their field.

George Soros?

And no, you're just ignorant. If it was up to you the world would be full of dullards and buffoons who spent their lives doing technical subjects. How boring.

	10-02-2005 02:39									#48
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Without engineers, there would be no Poly.

	10-02-2005 02:40									#49
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HP's stock soared over 10% on this news.

	10-02-2005 02:41									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon George Soros?

He has a degree in economics, not philosophy.

quote: And no, you're just ignorant. If it was up to you the world would be full of dullards and buffoons who spent their lives doing technical subjects. How boring.

Not true. I support the arts, I support music, I support english, I support history, etc.

I single out Philosophy as being questionable in today's universities.

I don't think they produce enough benefit back to society. All I hear from you is how they dictate ethics for us, which is hardly something I think is positive.

	10-02-2005 02:47									#51
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quote: He has a degree in economics, not philosophy.

He was also one of Karl Popper's students and remains a tireless advocate for the subject.

quote: I don't think they produce enough benefit back to society

Considering that the modern notion of the state is essentially derived from the work of Hobbes, Locke and Rousseau, that seems about the stupidest thing anyone has ever said.

But what you think is neither here nor there. People who matter don't care what you think, which is why the world's oldest academic subject is safe.

	10-02-2005 02:50									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: He has a degree in economics, not philosophy. He was also one of Karl Popper's students and remains a tireless advocate for the subject.

So what? I'm always talking about kids who take philosophy in university, and as a counter-argument you throw at me a dude who has an economics degree?

Are you sure philosophy in academia is to teach you how to construct good arguments?

quote: Considering that the modern notion of the state is essentially derived from the work of Hobbes, Locke and Rousseau, that seems about the stupidest thing anyone has ever said. But what you think is neither here nor there. People who matter don't care what you think, which is why the world's oldest academic subject is safe.

Strawman alert -- I'm referring to modern-day people who go to university and get a "philosophy" degree and call themselves philosophers.

This clearly does not include Hobbes, Locke, and Rousseau. I can't remember how many times you've tried this, and each time I remind you I don't care about old philosophers, the vast majority of which never got a degree in "philosophy".

	10-02-2005 02:50									#53
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Philosophy is also vital to the study (and creation) of law, in any country. Theology is a branch of philosophy and that is also vital in canon and other church law.

	10-02-2005 02:51									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Philosophy is also vital to the study (and creation) of law, in any country. Theology is a branch of philosophy and that is also vital in canon and other church law.

Theology is something that absolutely should not be funded by public money, period.

If Philosophy is vital to the study of law, why is it not part of a law degree? Why is it its own degree?

Similarly, why is the study of ancient philosophers not a History course?

	10-02-2005 02:56									#55
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Are there any philosophers of note that predate the Greeks and more to the point did they teach courses? If not I would say the study of mathmatics predates philospohy. Or perhaps the storytelling of prehistory ages past would count as theatre courses.

Philosophy come fairly late in the tech tree of CIV2.

	10-02-2005 03:00									#56
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Dont mess with philosophers or they will kick your arse with the kind of logic youve never seen.

Philosophy

	10-02-2005 03:08									#57
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius Dont mess with philosophers or they will kick your arse with the kind of logic youve never seen. Philosophy

Their logic definitely seems out of this world.

	10-02-2005 03:16									#58
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quote: If Philosophy is vital to the study of law, why is it not part of a law degree? Why is it its own degree?

Law schools assume some sort of liberal arts degree. Those who can do the critical thinking that philosophy grads (or poly sci grads, etc) can do tend to do better. And there are plenty of philosophy of law classes in the law school (jurisprudence, comparative law, etc). Now, there are law school that only teach technical side of things, making it more of a trade school, but those law schools don't provide your higher level judges or partners is large law firms.

	10-02-2005 03:18									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Asher So what? I'm always talking about kids who take philosophy in university, and as a counter-argument you throw at me a dude who has an economics degree?

And who did a lot of philosophy, so much so that he is obsessed with it. In fact for him, they are complementary. His charitable foundation has the sole purpose of advocating Popper's ideas on the Open Society. If you knew anything about Popper, you would immediately see the connection.

quote: Are you sure philosophy in academia is to teach you how to construct good arguments?

Yeah. And I'm just as sure that you couldn't spot one. Your crude attempts at reasoning might work with some people, but the truth is that they are just hamfisted.

quote: Strawman alert -- I'm referring to modern-day people who go to university and get a "philosophy" degree and call themselves philosophers.

Not many people do philosophy as a major. Many more take it as a support. I should know, I teach them. Most people who go into advanced study end up doing teaching and research.

It's insane to say that this has no influence on society. If you knew anything, you'd know that Rawls' ideas have been the most influential political ideas of the last half century, with the possible exception of Hayek, who is supposed to be an economist, but is as much a political philosopher.

quote: This clearly does not include Hobbes, Locke, and Rousseau. I can't remember how many times you've tried this, and each time I remind you I don't care about old philosophers, the vast majority of which never got a degree in "philosophy".

I don't care that you don't care. The time scale of philosophical development is glacial. It takes that long for ideas that once seemed radical to seep into the public consciousness. We still study all three of these people since their ideas are still relevant to the political organization of our societies. But it's not a case of just repeating what they say, but of examining the issues that they raise with greater vigour.

quote: Theology is something that absolutely should not be funded by public money, period.

People are interested in it. Similarly, people are interested in hunting down and characterizing the various forms of bugs that inhabit remote regions. Neither of these activities has a high probability of generating something that most people would find useful, but that's not the point, people are interested in them for their own sake.

That's what universities were created for - stuff like that. The fact that you are a buffoon who doesn't care makes no difference. Go into any large bookstore and examine the range of volumes for sale on all sorts of subjects that have no practical relevance. Lots of people just enjoy this stuff and it so happens that the only economically feasible way of organizing this sort of research effectively is the university system.

Similarly, lots of people are interested in philosophy. Other people aren't. But then again my tax dollars go to fund lots of boring crap I hate. But that's the social contract at work (another philosophical idea).

quote: If Philosophy is vital to the study of law, why is it not part of a law degree? Why is it its own degree?

I would have thought that you had been at university long enough to realize that divisions between degrees and departments are largely arbitrary.

For example, both economists and philosophers study game theory. Philosophers and historians study Plato. Mathematicians and philosophers study formal logic. Mathematicians and economists also have common ground. Linguists and philosophers are both interested in the nature of language.

The reason there are different departments is that different people relate the same issues to different things. Political scientists are interested in political philosophy, but cluster it together with history and economics. Philosophers are interested in mathematics and formal logic, but relate it to the acquisition of linguistic rules. Economists are interested in game theory, but apply it to questions of economics. Philosophers are interested in what game theory can tell us about the nature of rationality and beliefs, which they then relate to neuroscience. All of these disciplines relate to epistemology, which is part of philosophy, but which also interests some psychologists.

Each discipline has common ground, but clusters the issues in different relational sets.

That's why you find philosophers being referenced in English Lit (try reading some of Chaucer for example) and why you find historical contexts for ideas given in philosophy books.

quote: Similarly, why is the study of ancient philosophers not a History course?

Because Plato has more in common with Bertrand Russell than he does with Herodotus. And because the some of topics that Plato raises are still live concerns. You cannot understand Plato historically unless you understand him philosophically, because you need philosophical tools to understand what he is saying (you also need literary tools as well - that's why it is so difficult, despite looking easy to the untrained eye).

	10-02-2005 03:19									#60
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quote: Are there any philosophers of note that predate the Greeks

No.

quote: and more to the point did they teach courses? If not I would say the study of mathmatics predates philospohy.

Not as an abstract study of proofs and axioms. That comes later, and is an indirect result of the Pythagorean discoveries about harmonics.