10-02-2005 07:54									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon That's not what I was getting at, and it's not even true in any case, but I can't be bothered wasting any more time. Arguing with relativists is pointless, largely because relativism is pointless.

Life is pointless. Deal.

You don't like relativists because it basically makes your entire field useless. It's a shame that the whole world is relative, there is no black and white.

Get a real job.

	10-02-2005 08:19									#92
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quote: Get a real job.

If relativism is true, then in a sense there are no real jobs, so it makes no difference. Hence the implicit idiocy of your accusation.

quote: You don't like relativists because it basically makes your entire field useless.

No. It gives some people who can be bothered something to argue about.

	10-02-2005 08:30									#93
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Funny, because relativistism came from philosophers (Nietzsche, Derrida, Foucault).

	10-02-2005 08:32									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Funny, because relativistism came from philosophers (Nietzsche, Derrida, Foucault).

Here we go again...

The problem isn't with philosophers -- which exist in every field -- but with people who think studying philosophy in university makes them a philosopher.

I think that's the third time in this thread alone I've clarified that distinction, but people do not seem to comprehend it.

	10-02-2005 08:34									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon If relativism is true, then in a sense there are no real jobs, so it makes no difference. Hence the implicit idiocy of your accusation.

Sure there is, it's just that my statement is relative to my perspective.

It's not a difficult concept, you know.

And to me, a real job is not one like you're demonstrating here -- pointlessly trying to dismiss arguments purely on academic constructs and philosophical tools than on their merit or ideas.

quote: No. It gives some people who can be bothered something to argue about.

Like old Jewish ladies getting all verklempt over Barbara Streisand's new movie...

	10-02-2005 08:36									#96
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quote: people who think studying philosophy in university makes them a philosopher.

Derrida and Foucault studied philosophy in the university though.

	10-02-2005 08:38									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Derrida and Foucault studied philosophy in the university though.

I have no idea who they are, and I assure you I have not studied them, yet still came up with the concept of relativity.

I didn't even read Nietzsche until first-year uni, and by then it was a constant stream of eye-rolling as well.

The simple concept of everyone's experiences giving them different reasoning and opinions is so basic and fundamental to me that I've never had to learn it from reading a book. Maybe I'm just an incredible genius?..

	10-02-2005 08:43									#98
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quote: Sure there is, it's just that my statement is relative to my perspective.

It's actually quite hilarious how mistaken you are, but it would take me so long to explain to you why, and you probably wouldn't understand anyway, that I can't be bothered doing it.

The pulp fiction version is that relativism in cases like yours is simply childishness or in some cases sociopathy. No-one really believes it, just as no-one really believes in universal scepticism.

	10-02-2005 08:44									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon It's actually quite hilarious how mistaken you are, but it would take me so long to explain to you why, and you probably wouldn't understand anyway, that I can't be bothered doing it. The pulp fiction version is that relativism in cases like yours is simply childishness or in some cases sociopathy. No-one really believes it, just as no-one really believes in universal scepticism.

This is an example of the kind of trash that my tax dollars are paying you to think up?

This quote of yours here is Exhibit B.

It's no wonder Carly can destroy HP so quickly, if she even had twice the mental capacity as a genius like you.

	10-02-2005 08:47									#100
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quote: still came up with the concept of relativity

A simple version of it, perhaps. The problem is coming up with the bases of the theory which lead to the conclusion. Especially back in the 1920s, that was a radical viewpoint and very, very controversial. You have benefited from the society they have created where relativity is an option. And to do so they had to prove it rigorously.

	10-02-2005 08:50									#101
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Agathon: There is nothing wrong with being a relativist.

I'm sure you're one of the academics who will argue til you're red in the face against it. You get so wound up and used to all the philosophical constructs like the law of non-contradiction in your arguments that you lose sight of the big picture. That's the main problem, IMO, with modern-day "philosophers" -- they try to break everything down and fit the pieces into tools they were taught in school, then form a conclusion.

It's absolute nonsense, and is nothing more than an adoptive procedure that proves ultimately nothing.

	10-02-2005 08:54									#102
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quote: IMO, with modern-day "philosophers" -- they try to break everything down and fit the pieces into tools they were taught in school, then form a conclusion.

Isn't that how you are supposed to break down an issue?

	10-02-2005 08:56									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Isn't that how you are supposed to break down an issue?

Not when they're broken down out of convenience, rather than necessity.

I don't think that the opinion of where people's morals come from should be subject to the law of non-contradiction, for example. Humans are irrational creatures, their emotions can contradict eachother, their actions can be contradictory, even their opinions can be contradictory.

Yet that's what the majority of Philosophers break it down to. They turn an emotional question into a logical one, then try to argue something that is clearly relative into something that's absolute, to try to prove something.

The end result is worthless pompousness.

	10-02-2005 09:08									#104
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quote: Agathon: There is nothing wrong with being a relativist.

Yeah there is. It's like being a flat earther.

What's happened to you is that you have been caught in the web of everyday assumptions. Sit back and think for a minute about how much Freud, for example, has penetrated into our common vocabulary and way of seeing the world. Watch an episode of Oprah and mark down all the Freudian references, you will be surprised at the number.

Philosophy is responsible for a great deal of these. For example, people just didn't think in the ethical terms we think in now - like our conception of universal human rights for example. Many educated people still conceive of themselves as persons in accordance with Descartes' conception of mind -- even though this is completely at odds with modern science.

Consider for a moment that our very language and the norms which it entails may be misleading us into saying daft things -- because we don't even notice we are making the assumptions.

For example, people talk about "my experience" or "my perception" and assume they are referring to a private object or thing which represents external reality. That's a hefty assumption and one that leads naturally to scepticism and idealism.

But what if we looked more closely about how the language involved is used. Perhaps we wouldn't have to play that game.

THAT is more like contemporary philosophy.

	10-02-2005 09:09									#105
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quote: Yet that's what the majority of Philosophers break it down to. They turn an emotional question into a logical one, then try to argue something that is clearly relative into something that's absolute, to try to prove something.

Funny. Elijah is an emotivist.

	10-02-2005 09:12									#106
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Why shouldn't we stress logic? And put emotion into the view of logic? Some philosophers do believe we are mostly guided by emotion (Nietzsche, again). However, wasn't the change in view that humans are logical, rational creatures a good step? It did move us to the Enlightenment, after all. In the end, the emotion/logic dictomy is something that will be discussed by philosophy and you can come down on any side you wish.

As for clearly relative... few things are clearly anything, no matter how people try to push for them. In fact, you are being a bad relativist, by claiming clearly, or obvious, relativity.

Perhaps it is a result of your lack of philosophy training .

	10-02-2005 09:13									#107
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I guess it matters not, though... Agathon PWNS Asher yet again.

	10-02-2005 09:14									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Yeah there is. It's like being a flat earther. ... THAT is more like contemporary philosophy.

I agree -- taking an opinion and stating it as a fact. Very philosophical in today's universities...

No wonder the philosophy majors fail the science options they take.

There is nothing wrong with being a relativist. It's obviously not what you believe, but unfortunately, your opinion is relative to your history and your experience.

	10-02-2005 09:15									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Funny. Elijah is an emotivist.

Elijah is emo?

	10-02-2005 09:18									#110
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quote: I agree -- taking an opinion and stating it as a fact. Very philosophical in today's universities...

Do you believe that the earth is flat?

	10-02-2005 09:19									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Why shouldn't we stress logic? And put emotion into the view of logic?

Simple: emotions are not logical, and humans are emotional.

You boys overthink things.

quote: As for clearly relative... few things are clearly anything, no matter how people try to push for them. In fact, you are being a bad relativist, by claiming clearly, or obvious, relativity.

Saying something is clear does not contradict things being relative. In fact, this is a common argument against relativism in the lack of a real one. The only thing clear is the presense of relativism.

I may not be a philosophy expert, but I do know how to shoot down the textbook "All is relative" paradox. This is an excellent example though -- it's a perfect example of another philosophical tool that is abused in completely wrong situations to try to discredit other ideas.

quote: Perhaps it is a result of your lack of philosophy training .

The lack of my formal "philosophy" training allows me to see things with untainted vision, forced upon you guys. Philosophy is about knowing how to think, putting rules and rigid boundaries on that is prohibitive and detrimental to true, out of the box thinking.

	10-02-2005 09:21									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Do you believe that the earth is flat?

I believe that earth is flat if you make it so.

The Earth, however, is not flat.

Congratulations on the exquisite logic of "if you believe in relativism, you believe the Earth is flat."

Imran is right, you've sure "pwn3d" me once again.

	10-02-2005 09:21									#113
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quote: As for clearly relative... few things are clearly anything, no matter how people try to push for them. In fact, you are being a bad relativist, by claiming clearly, or obvious, relativity.

The ability to be sceptical about almost any belief, come what may, seems to be built in to rationality.

But I deny that it is possible to be sceptical about all your beliefs.

	10-02-2005 09:23									#114
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quote: The Earth, however, is not flat.

Relativism (cognitive and moral) is not true. It's just harder to see why. Once everyone took it for granted that the earth was flat, like many people take relativism for granted.

	10-02-2005 09:24									#115
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quote: Simple: emotions are not logical, and humans are emotional.

That assumes that morality is based on emotion. I find that hard to believe.

	10-02-2005 09:25									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Relativism (cognitive and moral) is not true. It's just harder to see why. Once everyone took it for granted that the earth was flat, like many people take relativism for granted.

The Earth is scientifically proven not to be flat.

It has not been proven that relativism is a "wrong" philosophy.

It's only "true" within your logical constructs, which unfortunately does not apply to humanity.

Perhaps it takes a thinker on a higher-level to see that, but I thought it would be pretty obvious.

	10-02-2005 09:26									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon That assumes that morality is based on emotion. I find that hard to believe.

It sure as hell isn't based on logic. If it was, Christians would have no qualms with two men having sex in the privacy of their own homes.

To me, it's obviously based on emotions. Perhaps fear of "God", perhaps sexual insecurity, etc.

	10-02-2005 09:28									#118
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quote: It has not been proven that relativism is a "wrong" philosophy.

Not yet. Fermat's last theorem remained unproven until recently. What's the difference. That's not science.

quote: It's only "true" within your logical constructs, which unfortunately does not apply to humanity.

I don't understand what this means.

	10-02-2005 09:29									#119
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quote: It sure as hell isn't based on logic.

The fact that people can be irrational about morality is no proof that morality itself must be irrational.

	10-02-2005 09:31									#120
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quote: Simple: emotions are not logical, and humans are emotional.

And reason does not exist? Why then does slavery not exist anymore when it was accepted in the year 1000?

quote: Saying something is clear does not contradict things being relative.

Believing that something is clear indicates you believe in its absolute truth. As a relativist, absolute truth is something that I do not accept.

quote: I do know how to shoot down the textbook "All is relative" paradox.

... but you didn't.

quote: Philosophy is about knowing how to think, putting rules and rigid boundaries on that is prohibitive and detrimental to true, out of the box thinking.

So called "out of box thinking" is disjointed, not logical, and easily defeated (as your arguments have been). There requires a system in which arguments must be held in. It is like the rules of a sporting event. There must be rules in order for the game to commence, and the better team to win.