10-02-2005 09:33									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Asher It sure as hell isn't based on logic. If it was, Christians would have no qualms with two men having sex in the privacy of their own homes. To me, it's obviously based on emotions. Perhaps fear of "God", perhaps sexual insecurity, etc.

Logic is just a tool.

If you put in the wrong assumptions, you end up with the wrong conclusions.

	10-02-2005 09:34									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Not yet. Fermat's last theorem remained unproven until recently. What's the difference. That's not science.

You're not honestly comparing a mathematical theory to a philosophical one? One is actually possible to prove without a shadow of a doubt, because the system was devised by man, and the other is impossible to prove...

quote: I don't understand what this means.

I don't expect you to, how many years now have you been taught how to think. You're reaching conclusions using the methods taught to you.

You're not a truly open thinker...

	10-02-2005 09:36									#123
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quote: You're not honestly comparing a mathematical theory to a philosophical one? One is actually possible to prove without a shadow of a doubt, because the system was devised by man, and the other is impossible to prove...

Can you prove that it's impossible to prove, with something like Gödel's proof?

	10-02-2005 09:41									#124
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quote: If you put in the wrong assumptions, you end up with the wrong conclusions.

garbage in, garbage out

	10-02-2005 09:42									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui And reason does not exist? Why then does slavery not exist anymore when it was accepted in the year 1000?

Reason is based on our own history and experiences. If reason did exist as an absolute entity, why did slavery ever occur at all?

Clearly something has changed over time...reasoning changes in social situations and morals. If this was not a relative phenomenon, it would have to be absolute. If it was absolute, why did it change?

quote: Believing that something is clear indicates you believe in its absolute truth. As a relativist, absolute truth is something that I do not accept. ... but you didn't.

Because it's not something you can use logic to prove. Which I've already been over.

It's not based on logic -- which is a tool devised to help us under stand things -- it's based on observation and reality. Of course it is a paradox to say all is relative, but that doesn't make it not the case.

It only does when you're a Philosopher who is trying to make his field seem useful.

quote: So called "out of box thinking" is disjointed, not logical, and easily defeated (as your arguments have been).

Imran: humans are not logical, neither is our world. Our system of understanding it should not be purely logical, either.

The sooner you types realize that, the better off you'll be.

You both continue "owning" my arguments and "defeating" them using philosophical constructs. Which is just really amusing to me, because it's my argument that those very constructs do not correspond completely to our real world.

And the fact that you can't see that further cements my opinion that these courses are probably doing more harm than good to university students, who are being prevented from true thinking ability and reduced to trying to force everything into a logical system.

	10-02-2005 09:43									#126
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quote: You both continue "owning" my arguments and "defeating" them using philosophical constructs. Which is just really amusing to me, because it's my argument that those very constructs do not correspond completely to our real world.

If that is true, how could we even know it?

	10-02-2005 09:44									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Can you prove that it's impossible to prove, with something like Gödel's proof?

"prove it's impossible to prove"?

Listen to yourself...

You can't prove it one way or the other. Why? Because it's not logical. Humanity and our world does not exist within a logical system. You cannot prove anything one way or another in our real world.

That's why Philosophers have adopted this logic system. You can prove things true or false inside that system, but that doesn't fully correspond to the real world.

If it did, we'd all be like Spock.

	10-02-2005 09:45									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon If that is true, how could we even know it?

If it's true that our world is not logical?

Where is the logic in genocide?

	10-02-2005 09:47									#129
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I'll make it simple.

1) Do you agree that emotions are not logical?
2) Do you agree that humans are emotional?
3) Do you agree that human emotions affect human action?
4) Do you agree that human action affect and is affected by the "real world"?
----
5) Human actions and behavior do not correspond to logic in all cases
----
6) Logic can therefore not be used to prove anything about human behavior

	10-02-2005 09:48									#130
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quote: Where is the logic in genocide?

Where is the logic in a supernova. Logic isn't about the world.

	10-02-2005 09:49									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Where is the logic in a supernova. Logic isn't about the world.

I think you just agreed with me without realizing it.

We don't use logic to define a supernova, why do we use it to define human behavior/morals?

	10-02-2005 09:51									#132
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quote: I think you just agreed with me without realizing it.

No. The world operates according to causal laws. The mind operates according to logical laws (actually it is more accurate to say that it is subject to logical norms, but that's another issue). Trying to reconcile the two is one of the main philosophical problems.

	10-02-2005 09:52									#133
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The mind is the brain. The brain is part of the world. The brain operates according to causal laws too.

	10-02-2005 09:53									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon No. The world operates according to causal laws. The mind operates according to logical laws (actually it is more accurate to say that it is subject to logical norms, but that's another issue). Trying to reconcile the two is one of the main philosophical problems.

The mind operates according to logical laws, eh?

What logical laws are followed by serial killers?

	10-02-2005 09:56									#135
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quote: What logical laws are followed by serial killers?

You can't be free and caught at the same time.

This will have to wait until tomorrow as I'm being booted off the computer. Wives!! Damn!!

	10-02-2005 09:57									#136
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quote: Reason is based on our own history and experiences. If reason did exist as an absolute entity, why did slavery ever occur at all?

Reason itself is not based on history and experiences, our starting points are. Reason is the same no matter the background. It depends on where you start and the steps you go from there.

After all, WHY did we change our view about slavery? Was it because of emotion? Of course not. It was because of reason and rational argument.

quote: Imran: humans are not logical, neither is our world.

Humans are far more logical than you believe. They all have the ability to reason and they do so, albeit sometimes in primative ways.

For example, every argument in Poly has people on both sides following rules of logic and reasoning. We try to point out where their logic or reasoning is flawed (which ironically is what you are attempting here... poorly though). Only times logic is thrown out the window is in Fez-like arguments where there is no attempt to respond to anything.

quote: Which is just really amusing to me, because it's my argument that those very constructs do not correspond completely to our real world.

Which you have totally failed to prove. Continuing to say it does not make it true. Why don't you go ahead and deconstruct the reason why you think logic and reason are negligable in human life rather than essential.

	10-02-2005 10:04									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Asher What logical laws are followed by serial killers?

Serial killers get triggered by a particular condition.

If such a condition is not present, a serial killer would not lose control and start killing.

Quite logical, that.

	10-02-2005 12:56									#138
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quote: Originally posted by St Leo quote: Women running things Q: "Dude, are you being sarcastic?" A: "I don't even know anymore." If you make the same damn joke every single time, you'll **** over your brain in ways you don't intend.

V.good point, but that's my first such joke

	10-02-2005 16:37									#139
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon He was also one of Karl Popper's students and remains a tireless advocate for the subject.

Really? I hope he "whales on the harp" next time he has a news conference, that would be sweet!

	10-02-2005 22:47									#140
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i saw on abcnews.com the headline that perhaps gender bias had something to do with Firiona's firing.

that's bullshit.

she was fired because she didn't lead the company well, not because she had a vagina.

	11-02-2005 00:06									#141
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Holy crap, we need a different thread to discuss Carly Fiorina being kicked out of HP! Then rename this thread "Philosophy: Vital or Vitriol"

Of four pages in this thread, three and half are Agathon and Asher arguing. Hey that's assonance! Discuss.

	11-02-2005 00:28									#142
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Asher should call it: philosophy, from the depth of space, I spit at thee.

	11-02-2005 03:38									#143
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Does anyone else find it weird that Asher has been expounding his philosophy of logical scepticism in this thread?

Oh the irony...

	11-02-2005 04:13									#144
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Watch out, Aggie, he'll 'remind' you that he's only talking about philosophy being taught at the university, not its inherant value (if that distinction holds weight is another story).

	11-02-2005 04:29									#145
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quote: Watch out, Aggie, he'll 'remind' you that he's only talking about philosophy being taught at the university, not its inherant value (if that distinction holds weight is another story).

Well if he was taught it at the university, he might be better at defending himself.

	11-02-2005 04:33									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Asher You both continue "owning" my arguments and "defeating" them using philosophical constructs. Which is just really amusing to me, because it's my argument that those very constructs do not correspond completely to our real world.

Wow. You know how to make statements that correspond to the world?

	11-02-2005 05:55									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Watch out, Aggie, he'll 'remind' you that he's only talking about philosophy being taught at the university, not its inherant value (if that distinction holds weight is another story).

It's funny that the person who majored in Philosophy and teaches it at a post-secondary level still has a hard time understanding that, yet you did.

	11-02-2005 05:56									#148
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quote: It's funny that the person who majored in Philosophy and teaches it at a post-secondary level still has a hard time understanding that, yet you did.

Oh.. I understand just fine. That it happens to be a load of crap is another matter.

	11-02-2005 06:00									#149
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It is to be expected you find my opinion to be a load of crap -- if you agreed with me you'd have studied something else.

	11-02-2005 06:12									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Not my point at all -- my original point, many threads ago, is that you don't need to study "philosophy" in school to be a philosopher. The best ones weren't.

Hmm... let's see. Plato, Aristotle, Plotinus, Aquinas, Ockham, Descartes, Kant, Hegel, Nietzsche, Wittgenstein, Heidegger, Husserl, Sartre, Habermas, Gadamer, Foucault, Putnam.