11-02-2005 23:23									#181
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quote: Well that's nice dear, but he went to Cambridge in 1963.

And did a BA. His PhD is from UC Irvine. 68.

I wouldn't go there for anything.

	11-02-2005 23:24									#182
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If he gave you a decent grade for that crap, something is wrong. Maybe he just doesn't care any more.

	11-02-2005 23:25									#183
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon And did a BA. His PhD is from UC Irvine. 68. I wouldn't go there for anything.

He's far older, more experienced than you, and you've got a BA and MA from the University of Waikato in New Zealand.

Asher for the win.

And isn't "Philosophy" a respected journal in your field? Considering they've published multiple papers of his...

	11-02-2005 23:25									#184
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quote: The goal was to argue which philosopher is more in-line to your opinion.

Sounds like a question which should lead to an essay including analysis. I mean, what was that, like 2 pages, not even? In order to determine, in the end, which one you find most agreeable, an in depth look at their beliefs is just about required.

quote: it's that the logical arguments are all still relative to the person's experience giving them.

It doesn't matter if the person's experience determines the starting point, logic is still the penultimate path in order to get from your starting point to the conclusion, and is the basis for modern Western society.

	11-02-2005 23:26									#185
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui It doesn't matter if the person's experience determines the starting point, logic is still the penultimate path in order to get from your starting point to the conclusion, and is the basis for modern Western society.

But if people don't have the same starting point, they won't always reach the same conclusion.

	11-02-2005 23:31									#186
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quote: Originally posted by Asher But if people don't have the same starting point, they won't always reach the same conclusion.

Um... yeah, so? People have different ideas. The challenge, in our society, is to engage in logical argument to try to get the other person to see your starting point as better (for whatever reason), or that your logical steps are better. After all, there are people of different starting points that end up at the same conclusion, and logical argument is a way of enticing that to happen.

	11-02-2005 23:34									#187
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Um... yeah, so?

If you admit that people reach different conclusions depending on their starting point, and their starting point depends on their experiences, then how can you not admit that there is no one, absolute correct conclusion?

Logic is a tool, it does help. I'm in computer science, I know.

But it's not something you can use to prove something to be absolutely true or false in our world. It's not that simple.

If we could define everything true/false by logic, computers could perfectly simulate the human mind.

Have you read any of Turing's work?

	11-02-2005 23:35									#188
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quote: He's far older, more experienced than you, and you've got a BA and MA from the University of Waikato in New Zealand.

Then why would he give you a good grade for such a lame paper. I'm assuming he just doesn't care.

I just finished marking a load of first year papers comparing Descartes and Hume. Most of them were far better than yours - in fact, to show I'm not biased, the best two were from a couple of CS students who took philosophy as an interest paper. They are the first two CS students I've had that are good at philosophy.

	11-02-2005 23:36									#189
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Then why would he give you a good grade for such a lame paper. I'm assuming he just doesn't care.

Because maybe after 30-40 years of grading the same cookier-cutter crap over and over it's nice to get something different?

	11-02-2005 23:37									#190
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quote: Because maybe after 30-40 years of grading the same cookier-cutter crap over and over it's nice to get something different?

There's different and good, and different and what you wrote.

	11-02-2005 23:38									#191
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon There's different and good, and different and what you wrote.

Obviously that's open to interpretation.

Welcome to philosophy.

	11-02-2005 23:39									#192
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quote: Obviously that's open to interpretation.

I don't know anyone who would have given your paper a good grade.

	11-02-2005 23:39									#193
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon I don't know anyone who would have given your paper a good grade.

Now you do.

Someone much more established than you, conveniently.

	11-02-2005 23:40									#194
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon I don't know anyone who would have given your paper a good grade.

By the way, as the Ryerson and UofT students around here say, "C means degree".

Aim high, kids...aim high.

	11-02-2005 23:40									#195
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quote: If we could define everything true/false by logic, computers could perfectly simulate the human mind. Have you read any of Turing's work?

No. But what makes you so sure that we couldn't simulate the human mind?

You cannot rule out multiple realizability by fiat.

	11-02-2005 23:42									#196
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quote: Now you do. Someone much more established than you, conveniently.

And I know people far more established than him who would have failed it. I wouldn't have failed it, because I'm a nice guy. It would be a bare pass for me.

	11-02-2005 23:43									#197
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon No. But what makes you so sure that we couldn't simulate the human mind? You cannot rule out multiple realizability by fiat.

You seriously haven't read Turing's papers? You have to be kidding me...

I thought that would be mandatory for undergrad philosophers, let alone graduate ones...

	11-02-2005 23:44									#198
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computational power, programming prowess, clever algorithms, and a true break from solid logic... and maybe we could build a system that passes the turing test.

can it be said to have acheived consciousness/sentience then? can it be said that it's simulating the human mind?

beats me. we have people here who apparently fail the turing test. for instance, i can't tell if ming is real or not.

	11-02-2005 23:46									#199
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quote: You seriously haven't read Turing's papers? You have to be kidding me... I thought that would be mandatory for undergrad philosophers, let alone graduate ones...

No. I didn't do much in the philosophy of mind and AI. It's the one thing I don't know that well. It's not mandatory, it's rather specialized. I work in the history of philosophy and I used to do phil of language and epistemology.

	11-02-2005 23:47									#200
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quote: beats me. we have people here who apparently fail the turing test. for instance, i can't tell if ming is real or not.

	11-02-2005 23:51									#201
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon No. I didn't do much in the philosophy of mind and AI. It's the one thing I don't know that well. It's not mandatory, it's rather specialized. I work in the history of philosophy and I used to do phil of language and epistemology.

Well, you should then.

He is extremely important, especially these days of computers.

	12-02-2005 00:25									#202
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quote: Well, you should then.

It has no relevance to my specialization, which is early Greek philosophy.

	12-02-2005 00:26									#203
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Philosophers are just sour that they are loosing out to science. Human nature being a case in point. The Uber-Marxists can no longer say we are a blank slate, infinitely moldable; the Libertarians can no longer say that society does not exist. Research in primate behavior and human genetics has pwned them.

	12-02-2005 00:32									#204
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quote: If you admit that people reach different conclusions depending on their starting point, and their starting point depends on their experiences, then how can you not admit that there is no one, absolute correct conclusion?

Ask the absolutists. I'm sure they will say something like there are certain starting experiences which are common to all humanity which lead all cultures to say murder is bad, etc.

	12-02-2005 00:47									#205
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon It has no relevance to my specialization, which is early Greek philosophy.

But it's an interesting thing to know, especially since I'm using it as part of my argument.

	12-02-2005 00:58									#206
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quote: Philosophers are just sour that they are loosing out to science.

How? Modern philosophy does not do the same things as it did 300 years ago. There are similarities, but nothing more.

	12-02-2005 01:25									#207
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: If you admit that people reach different conclusions depending on their starting point, and their starting point depends on their experiences, then how can you not admit that there is no one, absolute correct conclusion? Ask the absolutists. I'm sure they will say something like there are certain starting experiences which are common to all humanity which lead all cultures to say murder is bad, etc.

Which is empirical claim about the moral beliefs of people, not a normative statement in itself.

	12-02-2005 02:11									#208
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quote: Philosophers are just sour that they are loosing out to science. Human nature being a case in point. The Uber-Marxists can no longer say we are a blank slate, infinitely moldable; the Libertarians can no longer say that society does not exist. Research in primate behavior and human genetics has pwned them.

Maybe some old geezers feel that way. By I certainly don't feel that way, and the people I read don't feel that way. Maybe the fact that I specialize in philosophy of science as something to do with that.

The way I see it, scientists and philosophers are generally not trying to solve the same kinds of problems. For example, the scientist will try to find out what are the laws that govern nature. The philosopher will try to find out why nature obeys laws in the first place.

Of course, like you pointed out, sometimes they do enter in direct competition with science, and when this happens, they are frequently pwned. I'm not sour when this happens. I just means that I've learned something new about the world.

That said, your examples are not exactly fair ones. First, you forgot to mention that there was a marxist "science" trying to back up the marxist belief that there is no human nature. Remember Lysenko? I'll grant you it was bad science, but it was science anyway. So it wasn't just a case of philosophy vs. science and science won. Second, you forgot to mention that not all philosophers believed that there is no human nature. In fact, most of them believed that there is, in fact, a human nature.

	12-02-2005 03:42									#209
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: Now you do. Someone much more established than you, conveniently. And I know people far more established than him who would have failed it. I wouldn't have failed it, because I'm a nice guy. It would be a bare pass for me.

In my department, Asher's paper is a F. But I don't like them, they really take themselves too seriously.

	12-02-2005 03:44									#210
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quote: Originally posted by Asher I thought that would be mandatory for undergrad philosophers, let alone graduate ones...

No, you don't have to specialize in everything.