25-02-2005 19:00									#31
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Grigor - It sounds like our turnsets were pretty similar, but I haven't looked at your save yet. Maybe Atomant will clear up the rules for using MPE. For comparison, the rules I assumed were -

* You have to contact every AI on the turn you get MPE, and try to give or trade away all your techs to every tribe. You can do this in any order you want.

* If the AI says good-bye before you finish, you try again next turn. You can do normal things, like trading maps or demanding tribute, as long as you don't intentionally avoid tech gifts.

* You have to finish your 1000BC turn [I was in the same situation as you!] including the MPE part.

* If you are at war, I am not sure what Atomant had in mind [this didn't happen in my game]. I guess if the AI won't talk to you for some reason, you are off the hook. But we shouldn't get into wars to avoid giving tech, and should probably be nice during the MPE turn, at least. For example, I gave away tech whenever an AI demanded it.

	25-02-2005 19:46									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Peaster But we shouldn't get into wars to avoid giving tech, and should probably be nice during the MPE turn, at least.

Peaster, I totally disagree with you. The whole point of custom rulesets is to create new strategies. If being at war or having a despicable reputation allows us a turn or two advantage with a key tech vs a couple civs, I think we should exploit that! I very much doubt that atomant expected us to win at bloodlust without being the aggressor. Being smart about when to be aggressive -- like just before a key tech comes online -- is just logical.

If a civ refuses to talk and it allows me to build some bombers to send over his capital, that's a good thing. IMHO, the reason I can't gift that tech -- whether I've been demanding tribute every turn, or I started a war, or the AI just "decided" -- is immaterial.

This is a bloodlust game, and I expect to be at war much of the time. And I saw nothing in atomant's rules about being "nice" or gentlemanly...

	25-02-2005 20:30									#33
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Ah, the RCC heats up! I basically agree with JRabbit about the rush to Demo and soft Fundy. If the rules are that MGE requires gifting all civs immediately, then it may be a big mistake and somebody should do a turnset which doesn't go there. One note - we must give techs to the AI, but we don't have to take any from them. Our tech cost will be help down by keeping a tech disadvantage in techs we consider meaningless, llike Masonry.

I wasn't sure about the rule, but the reasons I went to MPE were: (1) I thought it would save several turns by getting techs like Map Making and Pottery from the AI (2) it seemed like the best way at the time. Research is really slooooooow on this map, and I could only get one of the four techs I wanted after Trade this turnset (HB, Poly, Map Making, Pottery).

An alternate plan might be:
-- Research to Trade ASAP
-- Build 4 caravans while researching Map Making
-- Build Lighthouse

By the way, it seems that Lighthouse is a real priority, and Magellan's will be helpful if we can get it.

	25-02-2005 21:03									#34
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totally agree on Magellan's

	25-02-2005 21:07									#35
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In the mid-game, I think a low Science setting and two-continent trading is our best approach to technology. It will keep the AI from getting ahead and keep our coffers full.

I think I'll avoid MGE on my turnset, just so we'll have an alternative.

I would love to see a little more discussion on some of the other points I raised.

	25-02-2005 22:12									#36
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

JR - I think the idea of a best-ball game is being abused a little here. You should not read the spoiler thread until you have played the turnset yourself.

About gratuitous wars - I guess Atomant and/or the other players should decide this. I am suggesting we follow the spirit of his rule by being as generous with our tech as the AI allows.

About MPE (aka MGE) - I think we need the AI maps, tech, and possible tribute soon, so I do not regret MPE. Giving away tech is rarely a problem anyway, though I'd prefer not to give them certain things, like pikemen.

Tech - Except for the missing pottery, I am happy with the results of my MPE. Maybe not the Wheel, but we get to skip HBR. I think this will be a slightly long game [like 800-1000AD], but it is very rare to get as far as Navigation in an EC game, and I can't remember EVER seeing Demo or Fundy in one. How can we get those techs in a reasonable time frame? I expect you are right about needing LH (but how do you know, without seeing the AI maps from MPE or building triremes first?)

	25-02-2005 23:02									#37
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I would build LH because of prior experience with gigamap conquest games. Even if there is only one continent, it saves many turns. And as you said in your own Early Conquest Guide (I Paraphrase)

Build LH if it saves as few as two turns.

As to other JRabbit suggestions:

quote: But even if we decide we want MPE, why not build camels-in-waiting for it and get another early WOW like HG or LH first?

Sounds good.

quote: If we are going to go forward with MPE, I then must wonder about the value of a SSC, since there's no possibility of taking a tech lead... In fact, it might make sense to set the science slider to zero after we get a few key early WoWs.

There is a good SSC site, labelled SSC, but it is up to each of us to decide how to use it. I think it will be useful, and I made an effort to build it up, but not a big one because the rush to get Monarchy by 2050 and then to get Trade ASAP had me working the wine hill. A SSC will be good for trading if you can find another continent.

quote: --Upgrades through Invention/Leo's is a potentially huge advantage in this game.

Agreed. Besides, Leo's is fun.

quote: --Conversely, the Library will be worthless, since everyone will have all techs anyway (assuming MPE).

And the Library isn't useless anyway??

quote: --STWA is a must. If we're all going to have the same units, best that ours be vets, eh? (Timing will be critical on this.)

Well, that depends. If we get Feudalism, everybody will, and we won't be able to conquer very well without a superabuindance of crooks, or perhaps dragoons, by which time everybody will have gunpowder, which means Cavalry against Riflemen... OTOH, if an AI gets feudalism first, we may be up the same creek.

	25-02-2005 23:51									#38
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Sorry about reading this thread guys, I just wanted to get your attention, since there was so little chat last week. If it offends i'll gladly sit out this round. (I figured there would be "spoiler" code to hide anything significant. It's not like the logs carry much detail.)

Peaster, I've never seen a conquest-with-reset, on a gigamap, finish by 1000ad. In fact, I doubt if I've seen one end before 1500. Early units just cant move far enough, fast enough.

The map is BIG, and transportation is critical. This almost always means multiple shipchains. Just my experience talking. I have absolutely no knowlege of the actual map we're on. If it's all land, then we would want to substitute RRs for ships; the principle is the same.

I expect it will get to cavalry & cannon, but I know I'm not nearly the early conqueror that some here are.

Anyway, I will play and post this weekend.

	26-02-2005 05:05									#39
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JR - I am not offended, and hope you will post.

I didn't notice your 8AM post, because I posted at almost the same time, and got bumped here to page 2. In response -

* I don't think the gigamap will change our strategy TOO much. IIRC it is 200x100, which means the farthest AI is about 20 turns away by trireme+LH. That's maybe 5 turns more than on normal/large maps. The re-starts will take longer to chase down, too, but we're only talking a few hundred extra years IMHO. And the best-ball aspect may completely cancel this handicap.

*So, I am still skeptical that we will have time for Navigation, Invention, Feudalism, Monotheism and Fundy. Maybe 1-2 of these is possible if we keep the science bar high, or perform SlowThinker-type miracles with trade routes. I'd prefer Mono+Nav among these.

*I think building 4-5 distant colonies with one barracks
each will work as well as STWA. Normally, I like STWA on a large map, but I don't like AI's with Feudalism, because pikemen are strong against crusaders. If an AI gets Feudalism first, I'd agree about STWA.

*I agree that LH is a good idea about 75% of the time (probably even more often on a gigamap), but there are plenty of maps where triremes can quickly island-hop to anywhere they need to go. I hesitate to say more until everyone has seen this game map (ie, the AI maps).

I don't think building LH before MPE is a bad idea in this game, but hunting for the AI without MPE maps could take a long time, so we want MPE (with its other benefits) pretty soon. I wanted HG before MPE, but couldn't do it.

*With balanced techs, WoW's will be important, but our biggest advantage will be our intelligence. Humans can take advantage of most tech advantages better than the AI. Exceptions would be defensive ones like Feudalism or Gunpowder.

*I agree that posts about strategy, like the ones today, make the game more fun. Please understand that I don't claim to know all the answers, and I welcome other opinions. Sorry if that didn't come through.

*Grigor, your comment about Leo's was really stupid (just kidding, guys!!). But seriously... we have seen it tried a few times and know it has drawbacks - it removes a unit's veteran status, and getting Invention takes some extra time. I don't mind trying it though, and chose the Wheel (among duller options) with that in mind.

	26-02-2005 06:58									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Peaster JR - I am not offended, and hope you will post. I didn't notice your 8AM post, because I posted at almost the same time, and got bumped here to page 2. In response - * I don't think the gigamap will change our strategy TOO much. IIRC it is 200x100, which means the farthest AI is about 20 turns away by trireme+LH. That's maybe 5 turns more than on normal/large maps. The re-starts will take longer to chase down, too, but we're only talking a few hundred extra years IMHO. And the best-ball aspect may completely cancel this handicap. *So, I am still skeptical that we will have time for Navigation, Invention, Feudalism, Monotheism and Fundy. Maybe 1-2 of these is possible if we keep the science bar high, or perform SlowThinker-type miracles with trade routes. I'd prefer Mono+Nav among these. *I think building 4-5 distant colonies with one barracks each will work as well as STWA. Normally, I like STWA on a large map, but I don't like AI's with Feudalism, because pikemen are strong against crusaders. If an AI gets Feudalism first, I'd agree about STWA. *I agree that LH is a good idea about 75% of the time (probably even more often on a gigamap), but there are plenty of maps where triremes can quickly island-hop to anywhere they need to go. I hesitate to say more until everyone has seen this game map (ie, the AI maps). I don't think building LH before MPE is a bad idea in this game, but hunting for the AI without MPE maps could take a long time, so we want MPE (with its other benefits) pretty soon. I wanted HG before MPE, but couldn't do it. *With balanced techs, WoW's will be important, but our biggest advantage will be our intelligence. Humans can take advantage of most tech advantages better than the AI. Exceptions would be defensive ones like Feudalism or Gunpowder. *I agree that posts about strategy, like the ones today, make the game more fun. Please understand that I don't claim to know all the answers, and I welcome other opinions. Sorry if that didn't come through. *Grigor, your comment about Leo's was really stupid (just kidding, guys!!). But seriously... we have seen it tried a few times and know it has drawbacks - it removes a unit's veteran status, and getting Invention takes some extra time. I don't mind trying it though, and chose the Wheel (among duller options) with that in mind.

Right, so many questions, so little time....

1) The only caveat other than the normal succession game rules is that techs must be given to all opposing sides on discovery. If you are at war, you must contact them and offer it to them. If they refuse to talk, try again next turn I guess. There is nothing to stop you bombing someone into snail snot even whilst you are gifting them. That depends on your individual strategy.

2) Remember this is a better ball approach. If your strategy wants one wonder over another, so be it. I have my own style of play, and I will be gearing my wonder production to Leo's, STWA, Economics and Demo.

3) The rules are simple gentlemen. technolgies must be given on discovery. Everything else is fair game. Reputation does not matter.

My turn sets will be posted Sunday. I did read the sets posted, but I am deliberately playing my own strategy.

	26-02-2005 07:05									#41
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quote: Originally posted by -Jrabbit Hmm, I look at these logs and must admit to a bit of WTF. Seems like we need to agree upon a strategy before this goes too much further. This is tech-neutral bloodlust, with restarts. So let me ramble with some commentary at this point... Obviously, with no real differentiation in the tech race, the greatest advantages in this game will lie in getting the right WoWs. Maybe I'm being a bit dense, but I don't understand the rush to MPE. The longer we wait to build it, the more the map area to be revealed. After we've gifted everyone, additional map requests will be difficult to get. Another possibility would be to blow off MPE entirely. This would limit required gifting to the civs we have met. On a gigamap, you can build a pretty big civ before meeting more than one or two others. (And the world is so big, it does make sense to get map trades, thus maybe MPE is OK.) Consider: It might do us more good to get our embassies with the late-game WoW after MPE expires. I'm suggesting that an isolationist policy, celebration growth, and a rush to soft fundy might be a better course of action. But even if we decide we want MPE, why not build camels-in-waiting for it and get another early WOW like HG or LH first? If we are going to go forward with MPE, I then must wonder about the value of a SSC, since there's no possibility of taking a tech lead... In fact, it might make sense to set the science slider to zero after we get a few key early WoWs. Speaking of which, notes on another couple WoWs -- --Upgrades through Invention/Leo's is a potentially huge advantage in this game. --Conversely, the Library will be worthless, since everyone will have all techs anyway (assuming MPE). --STWA is a must. If we're all going to have the same units, best that ours be vets, eh? (Timing will be critical on this.) Let's see some commentary on these random thoughts so my session will be informed by our agreed-upon goals...

1) Agree with wonders outlook, it will be the key. Strategy though will be up to the individual. May the best non-gender specific individual win.

2) I wont be going for MPE either. slows down the tech race whilst we have no contact, which is again another advantage for us. If, for exmaple we can get to mono without giving it to anyone else, we could build lots of crucx, then go on a voyage of conquest (i mean discovery and global enlightenment...... then conquest. Obviously give them the techs and (to quote my other post) grind them into snail snot.

	26-02-2005 08:36									#42
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2500BC: With Trepidation press enter key after looking at cities and changing workers to suit.
2450BC: SSC builds warrior, change production to settlers. Starting warrior exploring city radius. Move settler to start building road from P-GARDE to SSC. Antioch builds warriors, change to settlers.
2350: Discover CoL, start on MONARCHY
2250 Disband ARABELA, None settler creates city (NORTHERN OUTPOS) ARABELA none settler moves towards river to south.
2150: Barbs attack SUSA. Attack repeled
2100: SUSA builds settlers. Elephant pops hut, discover CURRENCY.
2050: Found city of BACTRA
1950: Pop hut, advanced city of SIDON discovered
1900: Civil disorder in SSC, create elvi.
1850: Discover MONARCHY, start researching TRADE. As ODE year, change government immediately.
1800: Ele (we are on a first name basis now) pops hut, discover HORSEBACK RIDING
1750: P-GARDE builds settlers, continues building settlers
1700: SSC builds settlers. City of TYRE north of SUSA founded, city name changed to MAG WHEEL. BACTRA builds warrior, change to settlers.
1650 P-POLIS builds city. Elephant pops hut. Advanced tribe SARDIS
1600 Civil disorder in SUSA, make elvi
1400: Civil disorder in ANTIOCH, make elvi
1350: SAMARIA founded, linked with roads to home cities. Barbs sighted near SUSA
1300: TRADE discovered, start POLYTHESIM. Unrest in P-GARDE. Elvi created.
1250: SUSA repels barbs. NORTHERN OUTPOS build settlers.,
1200: SSC builds settlers, civil disorder in BACTRA, elvi built.
1150: Change to horsemen in MAG WHEEL, rush build for barb threat and leader pursuit.
1100: HAMADAN built. SAMARIA builds warriors, starts settlers. MAGWHEEL Horsemen kills barbs and leader. MAGWHEEL changes from horsemen to warriors
1050: SUSA builds settlers. Warrior pops hut, finds 25 gold
1000: Civil disorder in SUSA, change from settlers to warriors.

Turn Summary

Cities Created: Six. (eleven total cities)
Settlers active: four, nine in production.
Technologies discovered: five.

Goals for next turn set from my perspective, continue building cities, linked with roads, start building caravans to rush build selected wonders. Biggest threats, maintaining happiness.

Attachment: ant_xe_b1000.sav
This has been downloaded 2 time(s).

	28-02-2005 04:12									#43
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Post now or forever hold your peace!!!!!

Wanted that for my +1

	28-02-2005 09:03									#44
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been busy.
hope to post before i crash tonight/

	28-02-2005 10:54									#45
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quote: Originally posted by -Jrabbit been busy. hope to post before i crash tonight/

Usual friday night?

	28-02-2005 11:36									#46
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yep.

Here's my save. I'll post the log tomorrow morning.

Basically, we have a whole lot of cities, just built Hanging Gardens, working on Myst. Barbs have been a problem, but huts have been a boon.

Attachment: xe1000bc.sav
This has been downloaded 4 time(s).

	28-02-2005 11:38									#47
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OK, city count is 12. It just seems like more...

	28-02-2005 16:04									#48
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Main events:
2050: Monarchy (disc. and est.)
1700: Currency
1400: Trade
1150: MapMaking
1050: Marco Polo(all maps traded)

Situation:
9 cities (+1 to be founded next turn at (196,80)).

Attachment: xelaf_b1000.sav
This has been downloaded 4 time(s).

	28-02-2005 16:50									#49
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Just waiting for the rabbits log to vote, but discussions on logs/saves todate?

Pro-cons of each would be welcome

	28-02-2005 19:51									#50
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All the saves look good: All have cities + settlers = 13 or more (good), monarchy+trade (good), few port cities (not good, but improvable), and 4/5 saves have a WoW (good).

Atomant: Has the highest city + settler total of 12 + 6 = 18, but we cannot build many more cities without HG. Has the most gold (108). No wonders, and tech seems a little behind. Production = 28 shields/turn (low).

Grigor: IMO you should finish your 1000BC turn before we vote. Your save will probably be similar to mine though.

JRabbit: City+S total = 12 + 1 = 13, and few roads, but this is the only save with HG (good). Tech includes writing, but not hr/poly/maps. Production = 45s/t (good).

LaFayette: Fewest cities (9) but has 5 S's and good roads. Has MPE, maps + good tech including poly and 30% progress to writing. Production = 31s/t (low).

Peaster: City + S = 12 + 4 =16 and OK roads. Has MPE + maps + tech including poly + myst + 25% progess to pots. Production = 51s/t (high).

I have not decided which I like the best, but am looking mostly at JR's and mine right now. I think the next goals will be

*Both MPE + HG within 10-15 turns.
*About 15 cities w decent ports, roads and prod'n.
*A few triremes w ellies, settlers or vans aboard
*LH within 15-20 turns.

	28-02-2005 20:55									#51
	-Jrabbit Log Remove this text

OK, so let me start by suggesting that we reduce the number of turns in the next round. Here's (roughly) where this version of things stands:

2500 -- Warrior in SSC
2450 -- northern NONE settler finds gems
2400 -- Arbela settler; heads south (city disbands)
2350 -- Discover Code Of Laws select Monarchy. at 11 turns, 2050 looks difficult.
2250 -- Hut yield adv. tribe of Gordium
2200 -- Susa kicks out a settler; barb archers appear. Bactra founded.
2150 -- Now 100,000.
2100 -- Archer dies but new replacement barbs appear to south. Phalanx rushed in Pasagardae.
2050 -- Elephant tips hut, kills barb horse. City of Sidon founded on handy silk.
1900 -- Monarchy discovered; Pottery is next. Last barb archer dies at Susa. Revolution!
1850 -- Xerxes promoted to Shah. We take a barb king for 150 GP.
1800 -- City of Tyre is founded. Hut yields adv. tribe of Sardis.
1750 -- Samaria is founded. That's 11 cities.
1600 -- Our scientists figure out how to make Pottery; our new goal is Currency.
1550 -- Toynbee's Dubious world History declares us Most Powerful.
1450 -- Hut nets 50 GP. We are trying to conserve our riches for rushed camels...
1400 -- Multiple barb horses near Gordium.
1350 -- Sardis disbands; settler looks for viable spot. Currency invented; Trade is next.
1300 -- Two huts yield 50 GP, Trade!!!
1250 -- Choose Writing for rushbuys on that 3rd row...
1150 -- 1st 4 camels complete and converging. Northern continent found.
1050 -- Establish city of Ergili; discover adv. tribe of Hamadan. (I can't rmember EVER getting so many adv. tribes...)
1000 -- We discover the technology called Writing and select Mysticism next. The build is completed for Hanging Gardens to come online next turn. Hut yields Warrior Code (guess we didn't need writing yet after all...)

We now have 12 cities, about 50 bucks in the bank IIRC, some nice white techs, and a settler or two on the board. I've neglected roads for the most part.

This looks like a continent we can really establish a powerbase from. Lots of potential city sites out there.

Several additional camels have been started for our next WoW (or perhaps to establish a trade base). We need boats, which were bypassed for trade and pottery.

Sorry for the delay in posting. RL has a way of interfering sometimes...

	28-02-2005 21:12									#52
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Overall, my goals were to ensure HG, create tech leadership, explore and expand. Mission mostly accomplished.

--HG is ours.
--Techs have begun to appear in white letters.
--We have enough unencumbered space on this continent to create about 2 dozen viable cities.
--There's more land to the north we can explore.

The more I play this, the more I like the idea of delaying MPE as long as possible, even if it means stashing 4 camels as a hedge against AI WoW-switching. In fact, once those are stashed, I try to build LH. The greater our tech lead, the more we can trade for. The longer we wait, the more the other civs will have mapped for us.

The semi-constant barbs forced me to produce more defenders than I normally employ vs. the AI, but at that point I was just trying to preserve beakers in a vain attempt to match the (very impressive) 2050 switch to monarchy. Still not sure how that was done -- I could not find the beakers anywhere!

Obviously, if my game is chosen, we have to get Maps before we can build MPE. So that's about 10-12 turns away. I don't think there's much risk there, since the AI typically builds Pyr first in these situations, but it's something to consider.

I'll try to look at SAVs tonight. Looking forward to some RCC of my save if anyone has time.

	01-03-2005 01:25									#53
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I like the rabbits save at the moment, with HG tilting things in that direction as well as high production (golf clap). That being said, perhaps a few more settlers can be cranked out to build cities and roads. I can't remember seeing the elephant though in JR's save.

The other save I really like this turn was Peasters. start of good road infrastructure and high(est) production balanced with reasonable cities, plus potentials. I do not see the true value of MPE this early in the game.

The only redeeming factor about my save is cities plus settlers. Perhaps changing settlers to camels and rushing HG once the techs are in place? I can't remember if I have pottery, but it should come from a hut sooner or later. Also, I think once the happiness is sorted, science should kick in with my game.

	01-03-2005 07:22									#54
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JR - You asked for RCC? Heh heh heh....

There are several things I like about your save, but it also has some problems:

1) Your two northern cities are making temples. You do not need temples with HG, and especially you don't need them in cities that are not growing.

2) You are researching mysticism, when we really need mapmaking (or maybe horse/poly). It will take about 18 turns to get mm from your save, unless we gamble with huts. But if we gamble, it may make things worse (2/3 tech rule). Mysticism may be useful LATER, to help us towards philosophy.

3) You are making lots of vans, but we have no use for them until we have mapmaking for triremes/LH/MPE. I don't like the idea of making vans to let them sit. We need those shields now - probably for settlers [since boats and ellies are not possible]. Some productions we can change to settlers, but not if that will disband the city.

4) Warrior Code wasn't your fault, but I don't like having it. We must give it to the 6 AIs eventually, which can then research feudalism and make pikemen. This could set us back hundreds of years.

5) We need to send out boats to the AI pretty soon, but we do not have mm, and your save has no northern port city. Nor is there a spare settler up there, or even one in production. This could add years to our conquest.

I have read your posts about delaying MPE, low-tech, trading, isolationism, fundy, etc ... but I don't see how these fit into a clear plan. In fact, you can't have low-tech AND fundy. You can't have isolation AND trade. I have strong doubts that these ideas would lead to victory before 1500AD.

Experience shows that early conquest requires sending out boats towards the AI ASAP. Usually that means mapmaking and MPE and LH. It is reasonable to aim for a pre - 1000 AD victory in this game if we adopt a fairly normal time-tested strategy:

A) Send out a pair of triremes from a north - eastern port city within about 10-15 turns. LH should be done within 15 turns. Load them with vet ellies and/or settlers, and aim them for Greece, because it is far away. We know where Greece is, if we have MPE.

B) Do the same for Russia [or the Babs] from a western port. Include at least one settler for Russia, since the AI map does not show a coastal target.

C) Repeat this for the other civs, possibly combining some nearby civs to reduce our total effort.

D) These boats should all arrive within 20 turns of departure, even on this large map. It's probably still a BC year. We have quit research and settling, and have raised taxes.

E) Next, it will take approx another 10-15 turns to conquer the civs. This will involve coastal attacks and/or rush-building from colonies. Our coffers grow during this period from tribute and victories. Now, it's about 400AD.

F) The rest is cleaning up the re-starts, which may take a few hundred years. I'd be shocked if we finish after 1000AD.

Do you doubt this plan? With bad luck, we may lose some boats at sea, or find an AI city is size 7 with walls and pikemen etc... but Grigor, La Fayette and I have all used this plan, and know that it usually works before 500AD. [Check the recent Apolyton or CFC tournaments and the previous Sxn game].

	01-03-2005 10:15									#55
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Good points for the most part.

--Yeah, i was upset when I got teh archers, but whattya do?
--Lack of food in the north is an issue. Those temps-in-progress could become barracks.
--Myst was an error; should have taken the horsie. Poly not yet offered. Old habits die hard.
--Obviously, the camels in progress can become settlers.
--It's hard to anticipate the need for a northern port when you don't know the map. there's one loose sett from a disbanded AdvTr, but I wasn't prescient enough to know that he needed to go north. mea culpa.
--The settler could make it to the north (east) shore Wheat in about 5 turns IIRC (btw, that's where the ellie is) to create a port city.
--My thought was to be high-tech/isolationist until MPE was needed, then convert to a cash economy and produce troops like mad.
--The trade reference was to intramural 2-continent trade, NOT with the AI.

I make no claims to being an early conquest specialist. I've never had less than crooks when making my world move, and know that some have done it with vet legions.

the fact that you, Grigor, and laFayette all use the same plan is semi-compelling. I just think that it's a blind stab at the familiar that does not take advantage of this game's custom rules. That's certainly not to say it wouldn't work.

Agreeing on a strategic approach is highly desirable. With a little better direction, I think my SAV would offer some advantages, but this may be mediated by (primarily) the Myst choice. I consider the temps and camels to be entirely fixable and not a big drawback.

	01-03-2005 12:46									#56
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I am convinced that the Grigor/Peaster/LF way is the best for early victory (otherwise I wouldn't have chosen it ).
But I guess it would be fun to use Atomant's or JR's save, just for a change.

	01-03-2005 12:58									#57
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

OK with me.

	01-03-2005 13:03									#58
	Inflate your Upload Space

Okay chaps, call to vote then? Vote with name of save to use. Votes to be in by mid day wednesday GMT.

Next game set will be 20 turns.

	01-03-2005 13:04									#59
	Put an end to popups!

For learning I am voting for the rabbits save.

	01-03-2005 18:03									#60
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I vote for Peaster's save. His is the only one to have a well developed northern production center which might be capable of a wonder as well as fighting units.

I sympathize with atomants desire to play a new style, and I might also vote for Rabbit's flawed save - except that in addition to Peasters RCC points above, his HG is in the wrong city and he has several cities on silk, which is left over from his 2x production games. In single production, a city on silk is very slow to get to 5 production at size 2, and can't keep up the settler cranking.

My save is off tech path and my cities are in crummy places.